Always look from the other perspective & provide value in the work you do with Daniel Forouzan

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show, where we help lawyers in private practice create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationship. I'm Reio host, in addition to being the founder of dominate law.com, I also run a marketing company that helps lawyers dominate their digital marketing. Today I'm super excited to have as our guest Mr. Daniel Frozen. Daniel is a civil litigator and trial attorney. Um, he's pretty young. He's 34 years old, and, uh, compared to a lot of other attorneys, uh, who are in their early stage of their career, he's also very successful. This year, he'll be completing at least, uh, $5 million in recovery on behalf of his clients. Um, he did his undergrad at the Southern California University and his did his law degree at Loyola Law School. Daniel, welcome.

Good morning, and thank you for having me.

And, uh, the reason I wanted to talk to you, Daniel, is because I felt, um, you know, there's two parts of a law career, right? One is, um, you know, understanding law becoming good at law. And the other part is, especially for those who I, in private practice, you know, getting good at growing your business and getting good at, uh, learning the secrets of success because, uh, I look around and I see a lot of lawyers who are in the bottom 80% of the pie as opposed to the top 5% or top 10%. And, uh, and the top people who do really well, especially the young, young lawyers who are still doing really well, they have figured out certain things that kind of helps them succeed. And, uh, the, my hope and hope for this conversation is to kind of learn some of those lessons you have learned that has hopefully helped you transform your life. And, uh, the very first thing I want to get to is, you know, um, something that I think you and I kind of chit chatted about, which is, um, you know, kind of doing something you love. So can you elaborate on this? Before we get into that, just tell me a little bit about who you are, you know, just your career. Just walk us through it and then let's jump right in.

Sure, I'd love to, and thank you for the introduction. Um, I went to University of Southern California for undergrad. My education, there was business administration with an emphasis on business leadership. I then worked in a construction defect mitigation firm for about a year, and then I moved on to Loyola Law School in law school. I attended law school in the evenings, and I worked during the day, I actually worked in the entertainment industry doing both clerkship and legal things as well as some creative things. And that package enabled me to put together, I think, some of the answers to your questions. Um, now I, in all honesty, I've only been practicing for so many years. I'm still a young attorney. There's a lot I have to figure out, and I've gotten lucky and things have gone well. But one of the things that I think you touched upon is there's an issue of purpose that I think really drives and motivates attorneys. And if you want, I'm happy just to jump into that.

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear your thoughts on that because you know, the good thing about you is you are figuring it out as you go along and you're willing to share what you're learning with others. So I would love to hear your thoughts.

Absolutely. I remember when I was at USC and one of the beautiful things that the under undergraduate education there is they profile successful people. And before I went to business school, I thought about one of these successful multimillionaire, multi-billionaire CEOs. And of course, money is not the only way you determine success, but just for the purpose of this conversation, I would look at these CEOs and I always thought to myself, oh, they must be perfect people. They must be the smartest guy in the room. Everything about them must be outstanding, yada, yada, yada. As time went on, and as I began to read these profiles, I began to realize, no, they're not perfect people. They're not all that different from anyone else in the planet. What happened was they found something that motivated 'em. They found something that they were passionate about, something that drove them to get up in the morning and stay late at the office. And I'm sure they're also very intelligent people, and I'm sure that they had, you know, skill sets they developed over the years, but the commonality amongst all the people that was profiled was find something that you love and it it'll be the wind under your wing, so to speak.

Right, right. And, um, what do you love? Like, what makes you get up in the morning and, and, uh, how did you stumble into it

For, for better or for worse? I do seem to enjoy arguing <laugh>, for better or for worse. I do enjoy the interesting thing about law, people have to appreciate. There's no other job in the world where I come to and I say, Hey, I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong. And not only do you have to listen, but your answer is going to be in front of a jury who's gonna judge you. There is no other job in the world where people get to do this type of stuff. Imagine a deposition, I'm gonna ask you questions for seven hours, you have to, to answer all my questions. And by the way, everything you say is recorded. This naturally comes to me. I enjoy that aspect of it. It's who I'm, I remember my, my parents would kids from a young age to be like, they want, I want them to buy me a toy, and they wouldn't buy it.

And I'd start arguing with them like, oh my God, you should be a lawyer. Irony of irony as it came true. So there is that, it is my natural state, for example, when I worked in the entertainment industry, it's not like that in the entertainment industry. You have to bite your tongue. In the entertainment industry, when a, a big name comes in the door, regardless of what they say or what they do, you have to treat them with a certain, you gotta roll out the red carpet, really. And that was never my style. I'm, I'm a bit more direct. If I disagree with someone, you'll probably know. So there's that aspect, which is just my net. My personality style lends itself to the law. But there is also another aspect, I think we chatted about this before, I'd love to put it on the record here, which is, I like fighting for the clients that I have.

And as an attorney, I think that the decision that needs to be made, I remember when I was in law school, I asked myself, what kind of law do I want to practice? But there's another question, and to be honest with you, I just realized that on this recording with you, you gotta ask yourself what kind of clients you wanna represent, what kind of clients give you confidence, what kind of clients motivate you. There's always a business decision, of course, what kind of clients help you pay the bill as well. But for me, it's very humbling and it's a very appreciated opportunity to be able to represent individuals oftentimes against corporations and insurance companies. It's gratifying.

Right. I love that story shared with me. I, I would love you to share it with the audience, like when you were in high school, uh, uh, school and there was this bully, and so can you tell us that story please?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a funny story. So I was walking up the stairs after PE and there was a gentleman in front of me in the stairs, and he was a kid that everyone picked on. It was just the nature of, of the universe, I guess, back then, and to my left. And in front of me was another kid who kind of bullied people and the bully pushed the kid who always gets picked on. I just got upset because it's like, why always this guy? And I pushed the bully back and then the teacher comes over and she gets mad at me. And I was like, oh, dear God, this is not the way this is supposed to go. You know what I mean? I'm standing up for the guy who couldn't stand up for himself because he just didn't have the confidence and he wasn't maybe large enough to stand up for himself physically.

That set something in motion for me. And there were other experiences down the line where I realized the victims sometimes get punished in a myriad of cases. And as I look over my litigations, for example, and sometimes things the defense tries to do to my plaintiffs, sometimes it's almost like, are you forgetting that it was my client who was victimized by this action? It's my client who has a third degree burn. It's my client who's in the hospital. It's my client who lost her husband. You know? So that is something that resonates with me, and it's why I do consumer advocacy, personal injury and employment law in particular. Um, I get to represent people who otherwise would not go up against a large international corporation. And they've been wrong, just like that kid got pushed. I get to be the guy who pushes back on behalf of my client. I like to bully the bully,

Right? And this is an important point I want people to remember, right? Because if you do something that just you love doing, just that makes you want to jump out of bed, then success comes to those people. And, and when you profile and when you study these very successful people, they all had a dream like Steve Jobs, he just wanted to make technology easy for the grandma and the kid. You know, like anybody. 'cause I remember in those days, even a VCR or a phone, you need to read the manual first. You just said why? It doesn't make any sense. I just want everybody to be able to figure out tech. In other words, technology is your servant. And he just pursued that for 30, 35 years. And when you look at the way things used to be 35 years ago versus what it is now, it's just, you know, you can't even imagine how much things have changed.

And he drove that single handedly and he made money. Many of the things we take for granted happen. So, but it's because he just was passionate about it. And what you're saying is, same thing with you. You just are passionate about standing up for the little guy against the biggest corporation. It's the exact same, you know, kid that you were standing up for that, you know, little kid who was getting bullied all the time and the bully who was bullying him all the time. And, and, uh, whether we like it or not, that's just reality, right? These high powered lawyers representing all these multi-billion dollar corporations or multi hundreds of millions of corporations, they, they are professional, you know, I don't wanna use the word bullies, but they, they don't really care that there's a human being at the other end. They just need to do what they need to do to, you know, make the numbers add up for the client. You know, for them it's very unemotional, but for you just, you kind of feel that pain of that person being bullied and you just, you just think there's something wrong with that and you wanna fight against it. Am I, am I summarizing it?

Yeah, you are. And I really appreciate you saying that. You know, I, I, I've gone up against, I don't want to say the name of some of these defendants, but I came to realize that there was a point where if a defendant has enough money or power, there's not much of a difference at a certain level that they really don't care. They're really just there to make your day difficult and slow you down. Even if they know they're gonna lose the case, that's not the point. They have to, to set up the castle walls in case someone else tries to come by. And I, I don't, I don't have any issue with that. Every corporation, governmental entities and things like that, they have all the right in the world to defend themselves as zealously as they wish. In fact, I learned from some of these defense attorneys, some of these high power, big law defense attorneys, I learned from them. And I appreciate their style and I respect the ethic and the aggressiveness with which, with which they litigate for me, though, to bring things full circle, I just couldn't do that. I have to be in the area that I have passion for,

Right? And you and I talked about your best buddy. He does something totally different now. You can't see yourself doing it, but he loves that stuff. So it's really, really important to, you know, get into a role or a, or a, or a type of law that that just does not work for you. That's something that you would do anyways, because it's something that excites you. So share that. So, so people listening can say, well, I, I, I don't get excited about what you get excited about, so what do I do?

Yeah. You know, the funny thing is, I actually did commercial litigation earlier in my career, and it was essentially very rich people who would hire attorneys and use the attorneys to extend business practices. And when there were conflicts, the attorneys would handle it. So on so forth. And I saw what it was like, and I have all the respect in the world for the people to do that. I mean, the, my buddy, like you said, who does a commercial litigation, Ivy League lawyer, smartest guy in the room, he just says a law that ultimately wasn't for me. I, I dabbled in it. I worked with him for a while. We even tried a case together, we did very well. But my heart is ultimately gonna be with the consumer for the little guy, if you wanna call it that way. And I also, you know, for example, I have a mentor who actually works on the other side of the law that I do. My mentor works in personal injury, and they work on the defense side, and occasionally we talk and they give me some insights. And it's so valuable to understand these things, not just from the perspective of strategy and tactic, but you also become, how to put it, I feel more reinforced in my position because I know I have the right bias for me,

Right? So number one, lesson purpose, really find out what, you know, what makes you, what makes you get excited. Number two, which is what we are jumping into it's relationship. But before we get into relationship, the key point that you made that I want to emphasize is, um, um, at the end of the day, law is a lot of psychology. So understanding your opponent and the way they think, the way they look at the problem is very, very powerful. So the mentor that you have is somebody who's on the other side of the aisle and, and just kind of seeing the world through his lens lets you be, you know, prepared. I, I know one of the examples you and I chit chatted on, on is the idea of, you know, losing the battle and winning the war and how they approach things, you know, which at some point you're not aware of. So can you expand on that and tell us more, uh, so people understand. I I

Would love to,

Yeah. People understand why it's so important to not only look at things or learn from your own perspective, but look at things from multiple perspectives, especially your opponent's perspective. So go ahead.

Absolutely. Um, I got very lucky where the mentorship that I've received over the years has been very high caliber, very high quality. And one of my mentors in particular works on the other side of the law is me. And the perspective that is gained from speaking with someone who works on the other side is you can't put a price on that. It's invaluable. And by the way, it goes both ways. You know, a defense attorney sometimes wants to know what a plaintiff's attorney might do. My mentor will actually reach out to me and say, well, as a plaintiff's attorney, what do you think about X, Y, and Z? It's perspective, it's appreciating the other side. Now, in particular, and I'm happy to share this with your audience, this is a Jim that I found. What I found to be the biggest difference in my experience, other people might have a different experience, but just in my experience was in the arena of employment and personal injury.

The plaintiff's bar is very concerned with tactics. How to win your motion. When's the deadline for your motion? What kind of arguments you should place in your motion? You know, how you should pick a jury. What are the questions you should ask? What are the things you should do as you pick the jury, almost hand to hand combat. What I learned from the other side is the way they look at things is a more big picture approach. And, and you need both, by the way. You need the tactics and you need the big picture. But what they focused on was strategy. Maybe they know they're not gonna win the motion, doesn't mean you don't give it a go. Maybe they know that this may make them look bad for a moment, but what it gets them in the long run is worthwhile. And there's a, I hate to hate to resort to television, but there's an episode of suits.

I know you and I were chatting about this, where the main character pretends to be losing the trial, and he's a defense attorney. As a result, the plaintiff's attorney who sees this happening is emboldened and feels confident. And when there's a break, the main character of the defense attorney walks up to the plaintiff's attorney and says, Hey, you're kicking my butt will settle with you for $30 million. The plaintiff's attorney thinks, oh, I'm doing so well, I got them to settle for 30. This is a win for me. After the paperwork is signed, the main character of the defense attorney goes, thanks to the $30 million settlement, this case is worth 80 million. I pretended to do bad, to get your confidence, confidence up. So you'd sign a settlement agreement for half the value of your case. Now, I don't go around doing stuff like that in my practice, it's not, not my nature. I don't think you do that on the plaintiff's end, but you have to know this informa information, not just as a sword, but also as a shield to make sure you don't get suckered.

Right? Right. So, so I think the other point you're making, I just wanted to emphasize is that, um, the way they look at things is different, right? I mean, I'm a big corporation and I, I mean, I represent a big corporation, so sometimes it might be easier for me to settle a small case than now make it into a class action and, you know, suffer the consequences. And lot, a lot of times the consequences are maybe not just even money, could be reputation, all kinds of things, right? So the more you understand the full picture, not just your piece, the more you can get into the mindset of the client, the, the opposing opposing party, and, and, and, and that team, uh, you know, the more you can, you know, do things in a way that's very beneficial to your client. So, so seeking out mentors, I mean, what, what you're recommending is get all kinds of mentors, you know, uh, the who bring a different perspective, not just get mentors who think the way you think and do things the way you do, because that's not gonna add anything. But when you bring people who think differently, who look at the world differently, then now you can see the world through their eyes and you're better prepared because of it.

Absolutely. I, I can't even tell you. I have a mentor for insurance questions. I have a mentor for nitty gritty law questions pertaining to personal injury. I have a mentor for nitty gritty law questions pertaining to employment. I have a mentor who works on the opposite side of the aisle than I do. There's a lot to be gained, and there's a lot of people, lemme throw in another story. When I worked in the entertainment industry, I realized something. No one wants to pick up your call. No one wants to talk to you. There's so many people in that industry, and there's so many wannabes, for a lack of a better word, that no one wants to talk to you unless you are already edified. Unless you already have a big name or someone makes a warm connection and, and they trust you. Law is surprisingly different.

You can call lawyers, you can walk up to them, you can speak to them. That wall is not there. You can go to the highest ranking attorney in a large firm. You can send, you can get their email address easy. You can call them, you can leave them a voicemail, you can get their direct number. I'm not suggesting you should go around calling a bunch of attorneys and asking them to be your mentors, but what I'm saying is the walls to the acquisition of mentorship is so much lower. And I just, I, I say this tongue in cheek, attorneys like to talk and just as someone helped them when they were younger attorneys like to pay it forward as well. It's surprisingly easy to find mentorship, quality mentorship in this practice. And if you're not doing it, I think it's really a waste.

Right. So you're saying finding these mentors and then leveraging these mentors is important, but more importantly, one point you made during our last conversation is about relationships. How do you build relationships? And, and you talked about giving, giving without expecting. So can you talk about that? Because some people struggle building high quality relationships. So I think what you have figured out would be useful to others.

Well, when I initiated my practice, I didn't have a lot of cases, as you can imagine. So I had a lot of time to go out there and hit the pavement, hit the dirt in the networking, you know, I would go to every event, every bar association event, I could go to every mixer, every networking event, et cetera. And what I began to notice was it, there was a generalized sense amongst everyone there of let's meet as many people as we can, let's give out as many business cards as we can. Let's just sort of shotgun the populace of that event and see where it leads. And I started trying to do that, but it really wasn't who I'm, and what I found to be most beneficial in terms of at least developing relationships is it's an issue of quality over quantity. I'd rather spend an entire networking event with one person, really having a good time with them and really solidifying a relationship with someone who obviously I like, if I'm spending the whole time with them and hopefully likes me back then to go out there and just try to shotgun and, and meet everyone at the event.

Now, I think part of that is, and lemme backtrack for a moment. I think both we, you and I and anyone listening to this will agree relationships are critical, the people you know is critical. Again, harping back to my film industry experience, very rarely was it what you knew it was who you knew. And in law it's a little different. It's both, it's, you do need to know the law, there's no way around that. But you also need to have the networks and the support groups. And I have heard certain people complain to me that, Hey, I'm not having this luck. I'm not meeting people in the way I would like to meet them, et cetera. And I think one of the things you have to remember when you go out is yes, you want to meet someone and hopefully they'll be your friend and hopefully you like them and maybe they can help you with your business and all that.

But it's a two way street. They also have to like you, they also have to appreciate you. You have to offer them something. And I don't mean to make it economical. I'm not suggesting you have to pay for your friends. Sometimes just being a decent human being and a good listener is all it takes. And it's surprisingly lacking in some sectors where people are there just to satiate themselves and there's no consideration of, well, how can I also lend myself to someone else? How can I be of value to other people? And I think that's important to think about it, not just as a one-way street, but as a two-way street,

Right? So you made a lot of interesting points. First one is you said be smart. It's not about quantity, it's about quality. So be very smart on what kind of relationships you want and think it through. So in other words, what's my best case with that relationship? Mm, second point you made is, which is very true, and Dale Carnegie had a quote, which is, the world is full of people who are grabbing and self-seeking In that world, the rare individual who helps others get what they want has no competition. So you're saying, don't be me, me, me, my business card, take my business card, send me clients, you know, me, me, me, really be about them, listen to them. And like you said, it's not sometimes giving them money or giving them bribes or any of that stuff, or even buying them lunch. It's sometimes being a listener, sometimes being somebody that who genuinely cares, right?

So what you're saying is always think about how can I add value? How can I make a difference with this other person? Because one of the most powerful principles that influence us as human beings is reciprocity, you know? But thousands of years, we have been taught to be kind to those who are kind to us. I'm sure you all remember that person who gave you this nice gift on your birthday. You now go out of your way to get him a nice gift. You know, it's just human nature. So, um, so you really tap into that principle and you really practice it. And I think the me, me, me, people never get anywhere because they're me, me, me. They're not what Dale Carnegie said, focused on helping others get what they want.

And it sounds like we've been reading some of the same books and you said something that I really love. How do you add value? And if I may take this thread just a little bit longer, there are people out there who are value neutral and there are people out there who give value and there are people out there who take value. And I think being aware of that is helpful. I know once that, once that model was introduced to me, I began to scan my own action. I said, oh my God, you know, I shouldn't have said that, that one time to that one person. And you know what, the only reason I said that, that was because I myself am insecure. I need to work on that. And so long as you have the ability to look objectively upon yourself, which sometimes is not a comfortable thing to do, why everyone doesn't do it, but if you take the time to do it and you see the value that you add to the table and you appreciate that, and again, I'm not suggesting someone should be manipulative. I'm not suggesting this is something you should write out and meticulously plan. I think if you're just a decent human being, these types of things go well for you,

Right? So relationships is about, about, of course, starting with who you want relationships with and then focusing on how you can add value. So when you build these amazing mentoring relationships, does it start small with a single conversation and then over time you like the person and they like you and you enjoy the company and then it turns into something into more formal?

Well, I mean, you can go a myriad of ways. I don't know if there's any straight way to do it. Obviously if you meet someone at a lawyer event, then you too have the bond and kinship of being in the legal industry, and that's a pretty direct shock to having legal conversations. But that's not the only thing, you know, I mean, I remember if you look at the mentors that I have now, the insurance guy, the PI law guy, the employment law guy, the person who works on the other side of the aisle is me. They came from all different sorts of places. I can tell you the attorney who is my personal injury law guru, he was actually assigned to me by a bar association who said, Hey, anyone looking for a mentor? And I stepped up and I said, of course. Are you kidding me?

This is for free, of course. Um, and this, by the way, this goes back to drive because I want to do well for my clients. I want to make sure that I understand the law well. And because I understand the law well, I see an opportunity to have mentorship from someone significantly older than me, and not just older. It's not just their older 'cause someone can be doing the wrong thing for a long period of time. It's someone who's had a particular type of success. And there were a lot of people around me who could have been mentors at this time. The difference I noticed between this gentleman and the other people, his words had a certain sharpness and focus, a no nonsense, illegally oriented attitude based on case law, statutory law and experience. And I saw that, and that differentiated him from the other person, for example.

And so the other person I didn't hang onto as a mentor, whereas this gentleman to this day, I will call him on his cell phone. He is semi-retired, but I still call him on his cell phone because he's just a source of gold. Other situations, it's different. You know, the insurance guru that I know, um, we, we met through a friend and who was also a lawyer, but we ended up just having coffee and talking and making each other laugh and that, and this and this and that. In fact, it was later stages of our relationship that this gentleman became a mentor for me. It didn't start out that way. So, you know, it can go either way. Who knows. I think if you meet people who are of quality, then they are people that you should consider valuable to you. And it's not just in my law world, in my personal world, I have someone who could be considered a mentor as well. And it's very helpful.

Let me ask you this. When it comes to, um, building a team, do you have any comments on that?

You know, I have one person who works for me at this point, so I don't know if I have a team, but what I would assume is this. I think that when I speak to people about their office, I hear interesting things related to the characters and personalities therein. And I can tell you this much, I I haven't, I don't have an army of attorneys working for me yet, so I can only speak so far on this, but what I can say from people who have confided in me is that you need to make sure you're working with people with whom you will not have personality conflicts in the office, because that at, we're already in an adversarial job. I'm up against you, you're up against me, I'm trying to defeat your client, you're trying to defeat my client. The adversarial, combative nature of the law is inherent to any litigation. If you layer on top of that now, personality conflicts of people within your own office, that just strikes me as making things very difficult over the long run. So that's something that has to be taken into consideration. And the other thing that has to be taken into consideration is if you are working with someone and there is a personality conflict, I think it's something worth spending time to resolve something worth spending time to figure out. So the machine is operating in full force,

Right? So what you're saying is, um, it's, it's really good to get to know the people you're gonna be working with, you know, before you hire them because, uh, it's much easier to hire, right? And, uh, you know, have a good relationship, then hire wrong, and then deal with a lot of the consequences and a lot of the headaches later on.

Yeah, I think it goes both ways when you're looking to get a job in a law firm. And I know that when I was looking for jobs, corporate culture wasn't exactly the, the first issue I had. I just wanted to get a job and get experience. But there is something to be said for that. There's something to be said for is this group of people akin to your personality type. And on the other end of the spectrum, now that I'm the employer, absolutely hiring someone who's not fit for the job, it take a big impact on your office because not only did you spend time hiring them, you spend time teaching them, training them, and then it turns out it was all for Naugh. So it's super important. I agree with you.

Now, let's switch gears. Um, when it comes to, uh, where do you want to go next? What are your plans? What are your visions? Can you summarize? Um, you know, and we talked about time, money, purpose, and relationships, right? So as humans, we all wanna be happier and typically we want more time to do the things we love. We want to do things that are meaningful to us. And you are lucky in finding that, and you are very deliberate about it, and that's what makes you want to get up in the morning and get excited about work. And then, uh, relationships, you know, um, nurturing those relationships. Because when people die, one of the things they always are thankful for is those relationships that meant a lot to them. Um, you know, usually happy people have really strong relationships. And finally, time, money, purpose, um, and relationships. So, and finally, of course, money, you know, because our thinking is if we have more money, we can use that money to buy time, do things we want, pursue our passion. So those four areas, do you see, you are you, are you, are thoughts on those four topics shifting along the way? In other words, when you are younger, you are only focused or more focused on one thing over the other. And then as you get older and as you think about, you know, family and lots of other things, does your thinking change?

Well, interesting question. I, you know, I'm only 34 myself. I'm not married, I don't have kids. So there is a limitation to how far I could provide insight here. But it is interesting because in the position that I am, I have a particular perspective, which is my law office has been around, what, for about six years here, I may say. So it's doing very well. I got very lucky with certain things and I'm on the right path. And in the near future, I have visualizations of what I want. And the way my litigation goes oftentimes, especially in the arena of discovery, goes very well. And I say to myself, Hey, imagine if I had multiple people underneath me doing this for me, what I can do, the, the voodoo that I could do at that point in time. So

More mindful of, um, you know, purpose today than you were younger, you know what I mean? Um, because we change, we grow up, right? So I just wanted to kind of see your thoughts on how you have changed and how, in terms of how you look at these four things.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about purpose for a second. You know, when I was younger, every everyone knows, do what you love. You never worked for another day of your life. Everyone's, and in USC where I was there for business school, we did the profiles on successful people and they really opened up my eyes to how that is applied in the real world. And then I got to my job and things are, it's not easy. A litigation style that I do is not easy. It's very, very nitty gritty, heavy discovery, lots of motion work. And that's not always common for this area of law, contingency based practice, which means the hours I'm spending on drafting a motion, I'm not getting paid for those hours. I only get paid if I actually settle or get a verdict on the case or a judgment. Um, so it was in that time where I said to myself, wow, Dan, you're working pretty hard.

This is pretty hard, but you seem to be doing all right. You know, even working Saturdays and Sundays, it's okay for you. What ha what happened is what I learned earlier about do what you love and have a purpose. The application came to fruition late nights at the office while I was like, okay, I'm here. It's 8 45 or it's nine or it's 10, whatever it might be on that particular date. And it was the purpose that drove me, and that's why it changed my perspective a bit on purpose. I agreed with the purpose topic before, but I didn't appreciate it like I do now because I'm seeing the application, I'm seeing the motivation. It's almost like I am my own experiment. You were taught about the value of purpose, and now here you go, you get to see the value of purpose firsthand. So in that sense, of course, relationships, um, in the legal arena, I've always been a big believer in networking.

I've always been a big believer in having a wide net of individuals who if you need something, you reach out to them. I wouldn't say my perspective has changed in terms of legal relationships, in terms of familial and intimate. The people who impress me the most is not just a lawyer who's doing a great job. I have a, I have a firm I'm doing well, that's great. There are people who do what I do, and they're single parents. And on top of that, they're on the board of several different things at the same time. I remember just in my law school, I sat in between the number one and the number two students in my section. And the number two student was a mother, had some children. And I think the children had some kind of a genetic situation going on where they were in the doctors a lot.

So that took a lot of her time and a lot of attention. She was still number two in my class. And the one who was number one in my class, they also had a family. And by the way, they were working full time in politics. They work for a politician and they were still number one in my section. I'll be honest with you. I have no idea how they do that. And I'm so, so impressed by that type of thing. I think you just need to take things with an analysis where you say, where am I right now? What do I ultimately want to achieve? What is it that I can do? What will support me? What won't support me? It's a, it's a case by case analysis.

This is awesome. Any final thoughts before we wrap up for both those lawyers who are in their mid careers and early careers and who are kind of trying to figure out how to be successful?

One piece of advice, I have not been around along, excuse me. I have not been around that long that I can give age old wisdom, but I have picked up one thing that I would like to share, if that's okay. Earlier in my career, I could not find a job. It's actually the reason I opened my own firm. I couldn't find anyone to hire me, and I was proti business, so I was like, all right, well, I'll just do it on my own. During that time, I ended up getting a lot of contract work. That's how I got involved in the commercial litigation. It's how I learned how corporate attorneys do things. I also had the opportunity to do a lot of contract work in the arena of discovery, specifically depositions. And for about a year, I drove all the way from Fresno all the way down to San Diego and all the way to Palm Springs and things like that, and everything in between, almost every day, taking and defending depositions.

And I was being paid, what was I getting paid, I think $45 an hour to do this, which back then when no one was hiring me was great. And after a certain period of time, I realized I had almost done 300 depositions in one year. It was insane. Sometimes I was doing two a day, and I remember, I, I drove home, was living with my parents at the time, couldn't afford rent, drove home, parked in my parents' driveway, hot summer day. My vehicle was hot, my energy was low. I opened the door and I just sat in my car and I stared at the floor. I said, I'm just gonna do these depos for the rest of my life. Is this it? You know what a, this is not, I'm doing contract work for someone else. Um, it's, it's been done. I've done it 300 times already.

I'm not gaining as much from it as I was in the beginning. In the beginning it was exciting. It was an experience. I was learning at a certain point, I was just doing it because I needed to make money. And it wasn't the best law. It was firms that had a lot of clients, so many clients that their own attorneys couldn't handle it. So they were just outsourced to other attorneys who would do this work. But you know, you, you had no familiarity with the case. You had no idea what was going on. You were purely a hired gun to come in and take or defend the deposition. So it wasn't the kind of law, it didn't have the integrity that I wanted it. And I said to myself, is I stared at the floor while still sitting in my car? Did I miss it?

Did I miss my opportunity? Did I screw it up? Should I have tried harder in law school? Should I have tried harder in college? Should I have tried harder in high school? Should I have taken that job when that opportunity came to me? Should I have went left when I went right, should I went right when I went left? You know, I just remember it was hot and I was looking at the floor and I was mildly depressed. And I think I was thinking, oh my God, did I fail? Is it over? In retrospect, those 300 depositions that I did have been such a valuable asset to my career. Now that I want to build a time machine, go back in the past and say to myself, Hey, you're crazy. This is the kind of thing that's gonna support you. Because after you do 300 depositions, as you can imagine, you start seeing patterns, you start seeing dots, and you begin to connect them.

In fact, to this day, um, bar associations, law schools, so on so forth, hire me to come by and do C-L-E-M-C-L-E on depositions specifically. And to this day, when I take depositions or when my client is deposed, my ability and comfort in the arena of deposition tactics and strategy is available to my clients and is a incredibly valuable tool. When I'm going after a deponent who, for example, has to say, I don't know, to every question I ask, or I have a difficult deponent or counsel, is difficult during the deposition. All of these things, I've seen them after 300 depositions, I've seen all that stuff. So I guess, long story short, this is a long-winded way to say, say, just because you're in the thick of it now doesn't mean you're not doing the right thing. Just because you can't see the value doesn't necessarily mean it's not there. So trust yourself, respect yourself, give yourself the dignity of being confident, and hopefully that will carry you.

I wanna thank you Daniel, for taking the time to talk to us today, and I also want to thank our listeners, uh, thank you for, you know, listening. Thank you for helping us grow. If you love this podcast with Daniel, please share it with your friends on Facebook and LinkedIn. Please write a review for us on iTunes. You can also access the podcast by going to dominate law.com. If you have any marketing questions, reach out to us. If you have any questions about our episode today or you wanna talk to Daniel, we'll be including his, uh, contact details. So please reach out to him. Uh, thank you Daniel, for your time. Uh, I do appreciate your honesty and your humility and sharing not only your wins, but also you know, what helped you get to where you are, the lessons you learned. So I really appreciate it and, um, um, I learned a lot and I'm sure a lot of the listeners, especially young attorneys, and especially attorneys in mid-career who are looking to, you know, take their practice at the next level, can learn some really good wisdom and nuggets from you. So thanks a lot for your time and your expertise.

Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

Welcome to Dominate Law, bringing you the best insights and experiences of successful personalities to help your law firm grow exponentially. Hosted by Narran Roja, CEO of Echo Marketing, you are listening to Dominate Law podcast series, a game changer podcast for lawyers.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show where we help lawyers in private practice create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationship. I'm Reio host, in addition to being the founder of dominate law.com, I also run a marketing company that helps lawyers dominate their digital marketing. Today I'm super excited to have as our guest Mr. Daniel Frozen. Daniel is a civil litigator and trial attorney. Um, he's pretty young, he's 34 years old, and, uh, compared to a lot of other attorneys, uh, who are in their early stage of their career, he's also very successful. This year, he'll be completing at least, uh, $5 million in recovery on behalf of his clients. Um, he did his undergrad at the Southern California University and his did his law degree at Loyola Law School. Daniel, welcome.

Good morning, and thank you for having me.

And, uh, the reason I wanted to talk to you, Daniel, is because I felt, um, you know, there's two parts of a law career, right? One is, um, you know, understanding law becoming good at law. And the other part is, especially for those who are in private practice, you know, getting good at growing your business and getting good at, uh, learning the secrets of success because, uh, I look around and I see a lot of lawyers who are in the bottom 80% of the pie as opposed to the top 5% or top 10%. And, uh, and the top people who do really well, especially the young, young lawyers who are still doing really well, they have figured out certain things that kind of helps them succeed. And, uh, the, my hope and hope for this conversation is to kind of learn some of those lessons you have learned that has hopefully helped you transform your life. And, uh, the very first thing I want to get to is, you know, um, something that I think you and I kind of chit chatted about, which is, um, you know, kind of doing something you love. So can you elaborate on this? Before we get into that, just tell me a little bit about who you are, you know, just your career. Just walk us through it and then let's jump right in.

Sure, I'd love to, and thank you for the introduction. Um, I went to University of Southern California for undergrad. My education, there was business administration with an emphasis on business leadership. I then worked in a construction defect mitigation firm for about a year, and then I moved on to Loyola Law School in law school. I attended law school in the evenings, and I worked during the day, I actually worked in the entertainment industry doing both clerkship and legal things as well as some creative things. And that package enabled me to put together, I think, some of the answers to your questions. Um, now I, in all honesty, I've only been practicing for so many years. I'm still a young attorney. There's a lot I have to figure out, and I've gotten lucky and things have gone well. But one of the things that I think you touched upon is there's an issue of purpose that I think really drives and motivates attorneys. And if you want, I'm happy just to jump into that.

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear your thoughts on that because you know, the good thing about you is you are figuring it out as you go along and you're willing to share what you're learning with others. So I would love to hear your thoughts.

Absolutely. I remember when I was at USC and one of the beautiful things that the under undergraduate education there is they profile successful people. And before I went to business school, I thought about one of these successful multimillionaire, multi-billionaire CEOs. And of course, money is not the only way you determine success, but just for the purpose of this conversation, I would look at these CEOs and I always thought to myself, oh, they must be perfect people. They must be the smartest guy in the room. Everything about them must be outstanding, yada, yada, yada. As time went on, and as I began to read these profiles, I began to realize, no, they're not perfect people. They're not all that different from anyone else in the planet. What happened was they found something that motivated 'em. They found something that they were passionate about, something that drove them to get up in the morning and stay late at the office. And I'm sure they're also very intelligent people, and I'm sure that they had, you know, skill sets they developed over the years, but the commonality amongst all the people that was profiled was find something that you, and it'll be the wind under your wing, so to speak.

Right, right. And, um, what do you love? Like what makes you get up in the morning and, and, uh, how did you stumble into it

For, for better or for worse? I do seem to enjoy arguing <laugh>, for better or for worse. I do enjoy the interesting thing about law that people have to appreciate. There's no other job in the world where I come to and I say, Hey, I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong. And not only do you have to listen, but your answer is going to be in front of a jury who's going to judge you. There is no other job in the world where people get to do this type of stuff. Imagine a deposition, I'm gonna ask you questions for seven hours, hours, you have to answer all my questions. And by the way, everything you say is recorded. This naturally comes to me. I enjoy that aspect of it. It's who I'm, I remember my, my parents would kid from a young age, they'd be like, they want, I want them to buy me a toy, and they wouldn't buy it.

And I start arguing with them like, oh my God, you should be a lawyer. Irony of irony as it came true. So there is that, it is my natural state, for example, when I worked in the entertainment industry, it's not like that in the entertainment industry. You have to bite your tongue. In the entertainment industry, when a, a big name comes in the door, regardless of what they say or what they do, you have to treat them with a certain, you gotta roll out the red carpet, really. And that was never my style. I'm, I'm a bit more direct. If I disagree with someone, you'll probably know. So there's that aspect, which is just my net. My personality style lends itself to the law. But there is also another aspect, I think we chatted about this before, I'd love to put it on the record here, which is, I like fighting for the clients that I have.

And as an attorney, I think that the decision that needs to be made, I remember when I was in law school, I asked myself, what kind of law do I want to practice? But there's another question, and to be honest with you, I just realized that on this recording with you, you gotta ask yourself what kind of clients you wanna represent, what kind of clients give you confidence, what kind of clients motivate you. There's always a business decision, of course, what kind of clients help you pay the bill as well. But for me, it's very humbling and it's a very appreciated opportunity to be able to represent individuals oftentimes against corporations and insurance companies. It's gratifying.

Right? I love that story shared with me. I, I, I would love you to share it with the audience, like when you were in high school, uh, uh, school and there was this bully, and so can you tell us that story please?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a funny story. So I was walking up the stairs after PE and there was a gentleman in front of me in the stairs, and he was the kid that everyone picked on. It was just the nature of, of the universe, I guess, back then, and to my left. And in front of me was another kid who kind of bullied people and the bully pushed the kid who always gets picked on. I just got upset because it's like, why always this guy? And I pushed the bully back and then the teacher comes over and she gets mad at me and I was like, oh, dear God, this is not the way this is supposed to go. You know what I mean? I'm standing up for the guy who couldn't stand up for himself because he just didn't have the confidence and he wasn't maybe large enough to stand up for himself physically.

That set something in motion for me. And there were other experiences down the line where I realized the victims sometimes get punished in a myriad of cases. And as I look over my litigations, for example, sometimes the things the defense tries to do to my plaintiffs, sometimes it's almost like, are you forgetting that it was my client who was victimized by this action? It's my client who has a third degree burn. It's my client who's in the hospital. It's my client who lost her husband, you know? So that is something that resonates with me and it's why I do consumer advocacy, personal injury and employment law in particular. Um, I get to represent people who otherwise would not go up against a large international corporation. And they've been wrong, just like that kid got pushed. I get to be the guy who pushes back on behalf of my client. I like to bully the bully,

Right? And this is an important point I want people to remember, right? Because if you do something that just you love doing, just that makes you want to jump out of bed, then success comes to those people. And, and when you profile and when you study these very successful people, they all had a dream like Steve Jobs, he just wanted to make technology easy for the grandma and the kid. You know, like anybody. 'cause I remember in those days, even a VCR or a phone, you need to read the manual first. You just said why? It doesn't make any sense. I just want everybody to be able to figure out tech. In other words, technology is your servant and he just pursued that for 30, 35 years. And when you look at the way things used to be 35 years ago versus what it is now, it's just, you know, you can't even imagine how much things have changed.

And he drove that single handedly and he made money. Many of the things we take for granted happen. So, but it's because he just was passionate about it. And what you're saying is, same thing with you. You just are passionate about standing up for the little guy against the biggest corporation. It's the exact same, you know, kid that you were standing up for that, you know, little kid who was getting bullied all the time and the bully who was bullying him all the time. And, and, uh, whether we like it or not, that's just reality, right? These high powered lawyers representing all these multi-billion dollar corporations or multi hundreds of millions of corporations, they, they are professional, you know, I don't wanna use the word bullies, but they, they don't really care that there's a human being at the other end. They just need to do what they need to do to, you know, make the numbers add up for the client. You know, for them it's very unemotional, but for you just, you kind of feel that pain of that person being bullied and you just, you just think there's something wrong with that and you wanna fight against it. Am I, am I summarizing it?

Yeah, you are. And I really appreciate you saying that. You know, I, I, I've gone up against, I don't want to say the name of some of these defendants, but I came to realize that there was a point where if a defendant has enough money or power, there's not much of a difference at a certain level that they really don't care. They're really just there to make your day difficult and slow you down. Even if they know they're gonna lose the case, that's not the point. They have to set up the castle walls in case someone else tries to come by. And I, I don't, I don't have any issue with that. Every corporation, governmental entities and things like that, they have all the right in the world to defend themselves as zealously as they wish. In fact, I learned from some of these defense attorneys, some of these high power, big law defense attorneys, I learned from them. And I appreciate their style and I respect the ethic and the aggressiveness with which, with which they litigate for me, though, to bring things full circle, I just couldn't do that. I have to be in the area that I have passion for,

Right? And you and I talked about your best buddy. He does something totally different now. You can't see yourself doing it, but he loves that stuff. So it's really, really important to, you know, get into a role or a, or a, or a type of law that, that just does not work for you. That's something that you would do anyways, because it's something that excites you. So share that. So, so people listening can say, well, I, I, I don't get excited about what you get excited about, so what do I do?

Yeah. You know, the funny thing is, I actually did commercial litigation earlier in my career, and it was essentially very rich people who would hire attorneys and use the attorneys to extend business practices. And when there were conflicts, the attorneys would handle it. So on so forth. And I saw what it was like, and I have all the respect in the world for the people to do that. I mean, the, my buddy, like you said, who does a commercial litigation, Ivy League lawyer, smartest guy in the room, he just says a law that ultimately wasn't for me. I, I dabbled in it. I worked with him for a while. We even tried a case together. We did very well. But my heart is ultimately gonna be with the consumer for the little guy, if you wanna call it that way. And I also, you know, for example, I have a mentor who actually works on the other side of the law that I do. My mentor works in personal injury, and they work on the defense side. And occasionally we talk and they give me some insights. And it's so valuable to understand these things, not just from the perspective of strategy and tactic, but you also become, how to put it, I feel more reinforced in my position because I know I have the right bias for me.

Right? So number one, lesson purpose, really find out what, you know, what makes you, what makes you get excited. Number two, which is what we are jumping into it's relationship. But before we get into relationship, the key point that you made that I wanna emphasize is, um, um, at the end of the day, law is a lot of psychology. So understanding your opponent and the way they think, the way they look at the problem is very, very powerful. So the mentor that you have is somebody who's on the other side of the aisle and, and just kind of seeing the world through his lens lets you be, you know, prepared. I, I know one of the examples you and I chit chatted on, on is the idea of, you know, losing the battle and winning the war and how they approach things, you know, which at some point you're not aware of. So can you expand on that and tell us more, uh, so people understand. I I would

Love to,

Yeah. People understand why it's so important to not only look at things or learn from your own perspective, but look at things from multiple perspectives, especially your opponent's perspective. So, go ahead.

Absolutely. Um, I got very lucky where the mentorship that I've received over the years has been very high caliber, very high quality. And one of my mentors in particular works on the other side of the law is me. And the perspective that is gained from speaking with someone who works on the other side is you can't put a price on that. It's invaluable. And by the way, it goes both ways. You know, a defense attorney sometimes wants to know what a plaintiff's attorney might do. My mentor will actually reach out to me and say, well, as a plaintiff's attorney, what do you think about X, Y, and Z? It's perspective, it's appreciating the other side. Now, in particular, and I'm happy to share this with your audience, this is a Jim that I found. What I found to be the biggest difference in my experience, other people might have a different experience, but just in my experience was in the arena of employment and personal injury.

The plaintiff's bar is very concerned with tactics. How to win your motion. When's the deadline for your motion? What kind of arguments you should place in your motion? You know, how you should pick a jury. What are the questions you should ask? What are the things you should do as you pick the jury, almost hand to hand combat. What I learned from the other side is the way they look at things is a more big picture approach. And, and you need both, by the way. You need the tactics and you need the big picture. But what they focused on was strategy. Maybe they know they're not gonna win the motion, doesn't mean you don't give it a go. Maybe they know that this may make them look bad for a moment, but what it gets them in the long run is worthwhile. And there's a, I hate to hate to resort to television, but there's an episode of Suits.

I know you and I were chatting about this, where the main character pretends to be losing a trial and he's a defense attorney. As a result, the plaintiff's attorney who sees this happening is emboldened and feels confident. And when there's a break, the main character of the defense attorney walks up to the plaintiff's attorney and says, Hey, you're kicking my butt. We'll settle with you for $30 million. The plaintiff's attorney thinks, oh, I'm doing so well, I got them to settle for 30. This is a win for me. After the paperwork is signed, the main character, the defense attorney goes, thanks to the $30 million settlement, this case is worth 80 million. I pretended to do that, to get your con confidence up so you'd sign a settlement agreement for half the value of your case. Now, I don't go around doing stuff like that in my practice. It's not, not my nature. I don't think you do that on the plaintiff's end, but you have to know this information, not just as a sword, but also as a shield to make sure you don't get suckered.

Right? Right. So, so I think the other point you're making, I just wanted to emphasize is that, um, the way they look at things is different, right? I mean, I'm a big corporation and I, I mean, I represent a big corporation, so sometimes it might be easier for me to settle a small case than now make it into a class action and, you know, suffer the consequences. And lot, a lot of times the consequences are maybe not just even money, it could be reputation, all kinds of things, right? So the more you understand the full picture, not just your piece, the more you can get into the mindset of the client, the opposing party, and, and, and, and that team, um, you know, the more you can, you know, do things in a way that's very beneficial to your client. So, so seeking out mentors, I mean, what, what you're recommending is get all kinds of mentors, you know, uh, the who bring a different perspective, not just get mentors who think the way you think can do things the way you do, because that's not gonna add anything. But when you bring people who think differently, who look at the world differently, then now you can see the world through their eyes and you're better prepared because of it.

Absolutely. I, I can't even tell you. I have a mentor for insurance questions. I have a mentor for nitty gritty law questions pertaining to personal injury. I have a mentor for nitty gritty law questions pertaining to employment. I have a mentor who works on the opposite side of the aisle that I do. There's a lot to be gained, and there's a lot of people, lemme fill in another story. When I worked in the entertainment industry, I realized something. No one wants to pick up your call. No one wants to talk to you. There's so many people in that industry, and there's so many wannabes, for a lack of a better word, that no one wants to talk to you unless you're already edified. Unless you already, you can call lawyers, you can walk up to them, you can speak to them. That wall is not there.

You can go to the highest ranking attorney in a large firm. You can send, you can get their email address easy. You can call 'em, you can leave 'em a voicemail, you can get their direct number. I'm not suggesting you should go around calling a bunch of attorneys and ask them to be your mentors. But what I'm saying is the walls to the acquisition of mentorship is so much lower. And I just, I, I say this tongue in cheek, attorneys like to talk and just as someone help them when they were younger attorneys like to pay it forward as well. It's surprisingly easy to find mentorship, quality mentorship in this practice. And if you're not doing it, I think it's really a waste.

Right. So you're saying finding these mentors and then leveraging these mentors is important, but more importantly, one point you made during our last conversation is about relationships. How do you build relationships? And, and you talked about giving, giving without expecting. So can you talk about that? Because some people struggle building high quality relationships. So I think what you have figured out would be useful to others.

Well, when I initiated my practice, I didn't have a lot of cases, as you can imagine. So I had a lot of time to go out there and hit the pavement, hit the dirt in the networking. You know, I would go to every event, every bar association event, I could go to every mixer, every networking event, et cetera. And what I began to notice was it, there was a generalized sense amongst everyone there of let's meet as many people as we can. Let's give out as many business cards as we can. Let's just sort of shotgun the populace of that event and see where it leads. And I started trying to do that, but it really wasn't who I'm, and what I found to be most beneficial in terms of at least developing relationships is it's an issue of quality over quantity. I'd rather spend an entire networking event with one person, really having a good time with them, and really solidifying a relationship with someone who obviously I like, if I'm spending the whole time with them and hopefully likes me back and to go out there and just try to shotgun and, and meet everyone at the event.

Now, I think part of that is, and let me backtrack for a moment. I think both we, you and I and anyone listening to this will agree relationships are critical, the people you know is critical. Again, harkening back to my film industry experience, very rarely was it what you knew, it was who you knew. And in law it's a little different. It's both, it's, you do need to know the law, there's no way around that. But you also need to have the networks and the support groups. And I have heard certain people complain to me that, Hey, I'm not having this luck. I'm not meeting people in the way I would like to meet them, et cetera. And I think one of the things you have to remember when you go out is yes, you want to meet someone and hopefully they'll be your friend and hopefully you like them and maybe they can help you with your business and all that.

But it's a two-way street. They also have to like you, they also have to appreciate you. You have to offer them something. And I don't mean to make it economical. I'm not suggesting you have to pay for your friends. Sometimes just being a decent human being and a good listener is all it takes. And it's surprisingly lacking in some sectors where people are there just to satiate themselves and there's no consideration of, well, how can I also lend myself to someone else? How can I be of value to other people? And I think that's important to think about it, not just as a one way street, but as a two way street,

Right? So you made a lot of interesting points. First one is you said be smart. It's not about quantity, it's about quality. So be very smart on what kind of relationships you want and think it through. So in other words, what's my best case with that relationship? Second point you made is, which is very true, and Dale Carnegie had a quote, which is, the world is full of people who are grabbing and self-seeking. In that world, the rare individual who helps others get what they want has no competition. So you're saying, don't be me, me, me, my business card, take my business card, send me clients, you know, me, me, me, really be about them, listen to them. And like you said, it's not sometimes giving them money or giving them bribes or any of that stuff, or even buying them lunch. It's sometimes being a listener, sometimes being somebody that who genuinely cares, right?

So what you're saying is always think about how can I add value? How can I make a difference with this other person? Because one of the most powerful principles that influence us as human beings is reciprocity, you know? But thousands of years, we have been taught to be kind to those who are kind to us. I'm sure you all remember that person who gave you this nice gift on your birthday. You now go out of your way to get him a nice gift. You know, it's just human nature. So, um, so you really tap into that principle and you really practice it. And I think the me, me, me, people never get anywhere because they're me, me, me. They're not what Dale Carnegie said, focused on helping others get what they want.

And it sounds like we've been reading some of the same books, and you said something that I really love. How do you add value? And if I may take this thread just a little bit longer, there are people out there who are value neutral and there are people out there who give value and there are people out there who take value. And I think being aware of that is helpful. I know once that, once that model was introduced to me, I began to scan my own action. I said, oh my God, you know, I shouldn't have said that that one time, that one person. And you know what, the only reason I said that was because I myself am insecure. I need to work on that. And so long as you have the ability to look objectively upon yourself, which sometimes is not a comfortable thing to do, why everyone doesn't do it, but if you take the time to do it and you see the value that you add to the table, and you appreciate that, and again, I'm not suggesting someone should be manipulative. I'm not suggesting this is something you should write out and meticulously plan. I think if you're just a decent human being, these types of things go well for you,

Right? So relationships is about, about of, of course, starting with who you want relationships with and then focusing on how you can add value. So when you build these amazing mentoring relationships, does it start small with a single conversation and then over time you like the person and they like you and you enjoy the company, and then it turns into something more formal?

Well, I mean, you can go a myriad of ways. I don't know if there's any straight way to do it. Obviously, if you meet someone at a lawyer event, then you two have the bond and kinship of being in the legal industry, and that's a pretty direct shock to having legal conversations. But that's not the only thing, you know, I mean, I remember if you look at the mentors that I have now, the insurance guy, the PI law guy, the employment law guy, the person who works on the other side of the aisle is me. They came from all different sorts of places. I can tell you the attorney who is my personal injury law guru, he was actually assigned to me by a bar association who said, Hey, anyone looking for a mentor? And I stepped up and I said, of course. Are you kidding me?

This is for free, of course. Um, and this, by the way, this goes back to drive because I want to do well for my clients. I want to make sure that I understand the law well because I understand the law well, I see an opportunity to have mentorship from someone significantly older than me, and not just older. It's not just their older 'cause someone can be doing the wrong thing for a long period of time. It's someone who's had a particular type of success. And there were a lot of people around me who could have been mentors at this time. The difference I noticed between this gentleman and the other people, his words had a certain sharpness and focus, a no nonsense, illegally oriented attitude based on case law, statutory law and experience. And I saw that, and that differentiated him from the other person, for example.

And so the other person I didn't hang onto to as a mentor, whereas this gentleman to this day, I will call him on his cell phone. He's semi-retired, but I still call him on his cell phone because he's just a source of gold. Other situations, it's different. You know, the insurance guru that I know, um, we met through a friend and who was also a lawyer, but we ended up just having coffee and talking and making each other laugh and that, and this and this and that. In fact, it was later stages of our relationship that this gentleman became a mentor for me. It wa it didn't start out that way. So, you know, it can go either way. Who knows. I think if you meet people who are of quality, then they are people that you should consider valuable to you. And it's not just in my law world, in my personal world, I have someone who could be considered a mentor as well. And it's very helpful.

Let me ask you this. When it comes to, um, building a team, do you have any comments on that?

You know, I have one person who works for me at this point, so I don't know if I have a team, but what I would assume is this. I think that when I speak to people about their office, I hear interesting things related to the characters and personalities there. And I can tell you this much, I, I haven't, I don't have an army of attorneys working for me yet, so I can only speak so far on this, but what I can say from people who have confided in me is that you need to make sure you're working with people with whom you will not have personality conflicts in the office. Because that, a, we're already in an adversarial job. I'm up against you, you're up against me, I'm trying to defeat your client, you're trying to defeat my client. The adversarial, combative nature of the law is inherent to any litigation. If you layer on top of that now, personality conflicts of people within your own office, that just strikes me as making things very difficult over the long run. So that's something that has to be taken into consideration. And the other thing that has to be taken into consideration is if you are working with someone and there is a personality conflict, I think it's something worth spending time to resolve something worth spending time to figure out. So the machine is operating in full force,

Right? So what you're saying is, um, it's, it's really good to get to know the people you're gonna be working with, you know, before you hire them because, uh, it's much easier to hire, right? And, uh, you know, have a good relationship than hire wrong and then deal with a lot of the consequences and a lot of the headaches later on.

Yeah, I think it goes both ways when you're looking to get a job in a law firm. And I know that when I was looking for jobs, corporate culture wasn't exactly the, the first issue I had. I just wanted to get a job and get experience. But there is something to be said for that. There's something to be said for is this group of people akin to your personality type. And on the other end of the spectrum, now that I'm the employer, absolutely hiring someone who's not fit for the job, it can take a big impact on your office because not only did you spend time hiring them, you spend time teaching them, training them, and then it turns out it was all for Naugh. So it's super important. I agree with you.

Now let's switch gears. Um, when it comes to, uh, where do you want to go next? What are your plans? What are your visions? Can you summarize? Um, you know, and we talked about time, money, purpose, and relationships, right? So as humans, we all wanna be happier and typically we want more time to do the things we love. We want to do things that are meaningful to us. And you are lucky in finding that, and you are very deliberate about it, and that's what makes you want to get up in the morning and get excited about work. And then, uh, relationships, you know, um, nurturing those relationships. Because when people die, one of the things they always are thankful for is those relationships that meant a lot to them. Um, you know, usually happy people have really strong relationships. And finally, time, money, purpose, um, and relationships. So, and finally, of course, money, you know, because our thinking is if we have more money, we can use that money to buy time, do things we want, pursue our passion. So those four areas, do you see, you are you, are you are thoughts on those four topics shifting along the way? In other words, when you are younger, you are only focused or more focused on one thing over the other. And then as you get older and as you think about, you know, uh, family and lots of other things, does your thinking change?

Well, interesting question. I, you know, I'm only 34 myself. I'm not married, I don't have kids. So there is a limitation to how far I could provide insight here. But it is interesting because in the position that I am, I have a particular perspective, which is my law office has been around, what, for about six years here I may say. So it's doing very well. I got very lucky with certain things and I'm on the right path. And in the near future, I have visualizations of what I want. And the way my litigation goes oftentimes, especially in the arena of discovery, goes very well. And I say to myself, Hey, imagine if I had multiple people underneath me doing this for me, what I can do, the, the voodoo that I could do at that point in time. So

More mindful of, um, you know, purpose today than you were younger, you know what I mean? Um, because we change, we grow up, right? So I just wanted to kind of see your thoughts on how you have changed and how in terms of how you look at these four things.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about purpose for a second. You know, when I was younger, every everyone knows, do what you love. You never work for another day of your life. Everyone's heard that. And in USC where I was there for business school, we did the profiles on successful people and they really opened up my eyes to how that is applied in the real world. And then I got to my job and things are, it's not easy. Litigation style that I do is not easy. It's very, very nitty gritty, heavy discovery, lots of motion work. And that's not always common for this area of law, contingency based practice, which means the hours I'm spending on drafting a motion, I'm not getting paid for those hours. I only get paid if I actually settle or get a verdict on the case or a judgment. Um, so it was in that time where I said to myself, wow, Dan, you're working pretty hard.

This is pretty hard, but you seem to be doing all right. You know, even working Saturdays and Sundays, it's okay for you. What ha what happened is what I learned earlier about do what you love and have a purpose. The application came to fruition late nights at the office while I was like, okay, I'm here. It's 8 45 or it's nine or it's 10, whatever it might be on that particular date. And it was the purpose that drove me, and that's why it changed my perspective a bit on purpose. I agreed with the purpose topic before, but I didn't appreciate it like I do now because I'm seeing the application, I'm seeing the motivation. It's almost like I am my own experiment. You were taught about the value of purpose, and now here you go, you get to see the value of purpose firsthand. So in that sense, of course, relationships, um, in the legal arena, I've always been a big believer in networking.

I've always been a big believer in having a wide net of individuals who if you need something, you reach out to them. I wouldn't say my perspective has changed in terms of legal relationships, in terms of familial and intimate. The people who impress me the most is not just a lawyer who's doing a great job. I have a, I have a firm I'm doing well, that's great. There are people who do what I do, and they're single parents. And on top of that, they're on the board of several different things at the same time. I remember just in my law school, I sat in between the number one and the number two students in my section. And the number two student was a mother, had some children. And I think the children had some kind of a genetic situation going on where they were in the doctors a lot.

So that took a lot of her time and a lot of attention. She was still number two in my class. And the one who was number one in my class, they also had a family. And by the way, they were working full-time in politics. They work for a politician and they were still number one in my section. I'll be honest with you. I have no idea how they do that. And I'm so, so impressed by that type of thing. I think you just need to take things with an analysis where you say, where am I right now? What do I ultimately want to achieve? What is it that I can do? What will support me? What won't support me? It's a, it's a case by case analysis.

This is awesome. Any final thoughts before we wrap up for both those lawyers who are in their mid careers and early careers and who are kind of trying to figure out how to be successful?

One piece of advice, I have not been around along, excuse me. I have not been around that long that I can give age old wisdom, but I have picked up one thing that I would like to share, if that's okay. Earlier in my career, I could not find a job. It's actually the reason I opened my own firm. I couldn't find anyone to hire me and I was procuring business, so I was like, all right, well, I'll just do it on my own. During that time, I ended up getting a lot of contract work. That's how I got involved in the commercial litigation. It's how I learned how corporate attorneys do things. I also had the opportunity to do a lot of contract work in the arena of discovery, specifically depositions. And for about a year, I drove all the way from Fresno all the way down to San Diego and all the way to Palm Springs and things like that, and everything in between, almost every day, taking and defending depositions.

And I was being paid, what was I getting paid, I think $45 an hour to do this, which back then, when no one was hiring you, it was great. And after a certain period of time, I realized I had almost done 300 depositions in one year. It was insane. Sometimes I was doing two a day and I remember, I, I drove home, was living with my parents at the time, couldn't afford rent, drove home, parked in my parents' driveway, hot summer day. My vehicle was hot, my energy was low. I opened the door and I just sat in my car and I stared at the floor. I said, I'm just gonna do these depos for the rest of my life. Is this it? You know what a, this is not, I'm doing contract work for someone else. Um, it's, it's been done. I've done it 300 times already.

I'm not gaining as much from it as I was in the beginning. In the beginning it was exciting. It was an experience. I was learning at a certain point, I was just doing it because I needed to make money. And it wasn't the best law. It was firms that had a lot of clients, so many clients that their own attorneys couldn't handle it. So they were just outsourced to other attorneys who would do this work. But you know, you, you had no familiarity with the case. You had no idea what was going on. You were purely a hired gun to come in and take or defend a deposition. So it wasn't the kind of law, it didn't have the integrity that I wanted it. And I said to myself, is I stared at the floor while still sitting in my car? Did I miss it?

Did I miss my opportunity? Did I screw it up? Should I have tried harder in law school? Should I have tried harder in college? Should I have tried harder in high school? Should I have taken that job when that opportunity came to me? Should I went left when I went right, should I went right when I went left? You know, I just remember it was hot and I was looking at the floor and I was mildly depressed. And I think I was thinking, oh my God, did I fail? Is it over? In retrospect, those 300 depositions that I did have been such a valuable asset to my career. Now that I want to build a time machine, go back in the past and say to myself, Hey, you're crazy. This is the kind of thing that's gonna support you. Because after you do a 300 depositions, as you can imagine, you start seeing patterns, you start seeing dots, and you begin to connect them.

In fact, to this day, um, bar associations, law schools, so on so forth, hire me to come by and do C-L-E-M-C-L-E on depositions specifically. And to this day, when I take depositions or when my client is deposed, my ability and comfort in the arena of deposition tactics and strategy is available to my clients and is a incredibly valuable tool. When I'm going after a deponent who, for example, has to say, I don't know, to every question I ask, or I have a difficult deponent or counsel, is difficult during the deposition. All of these things, I've seen them after 300 depositions, I've seen all that stuff. So I guess, long story short, this is a long-winded way to say, just because you're in the thick of it now doesn't mean you're not doing the right thing. Just because you can't see the value doesn't necessarily mean it's not there. So trust yourself, respect yourself. Give yourself the dignity of being confident, and hopefully that will carry you.

I wanna thank you Daniel, for taking the time to talk to us today, and I also want to thank our listeners, uh, thank you for, you know, listening. Thank you for helping us grow. If you love this podcast with Daniel, please share it with your friends on Facebook and LinkedIn. Please write a review for us on iTunes. You can also access the podcast by going to dominate law.com. If you have any marketing questions, reach out to us. If you have any questions about our episode today or you wanna talk to Daniel, we'll be including his, uh, contact details. So please reach out to him. Uh, thank you Daniel, for your time. Uh, I do appreciate your honesty and your humility and sharing not only your wins, but also you know, what helped you get to where you are, the lessons you learned. So I really appreciate it and um, um, I learned a lot and I'm sure a lot of the listeners, especially young attorneys, and especially attorneys in mid-career who are looking to, you know, take their practice the next level, can learn some really good wisdom and nuggets from you. So thanks a lot for your time and your expertise. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.