Finding Peace Meaning and Integrity as a Lawyer in today's Society with Joy Bertrand

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is your host. Nareen Dominate Law is a podcast where we help lawyers in private practice create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. And we listen to those with interesting experiences who we can learn from. Today I'm super excited to have as our guest, Ms. Joy Bertand. Joy runs a private law practice focused on federal trial work, criminal defense, and plaintiff's side litigation. She received her Juris Doctorate from Indiana University Bloomington in 1996 after law school, joy started her career as the statewide coordinator of the Wisconsin Coalition Against Death Penalty. Then she joined the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office as an assistant DA in 2005. She entered private practice in October, 2011. She also graduated from the Jerry Spence Trial Lawyers College in Dubai, Wyoming, and completed the Trial Lawyers College Faculty training in May, 2014. She's admitted to practice in Wisconsin, Arizona, California, and several federal district and circuit courts. Joy, it's a great pleasure to have you on our show today. Welcome.

Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Uh, thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time. I know it would, uh, you know, I would not do US service if I don't talk about what's happening right now with the border and the children, <laugh>. So tell us what you're feeling right now. You know, tell us what are your thoughts? What are you up to, uh, based on what's going on in the border?

Well, um, I think like a lot of Americans, I'm sick about what I'm seeing and hearing. Um, it's actually hard not to get emotional talking about it. And, uh, my law firm is currently in the process of coordinating, um, some litigation teams and working with lawyers in the trenches such as criminal defense lawyers and immigration lawyers to say, you know, we, we'd like to talk to your clients if they're interested in bringing either a class, uh, claim or an individual claim for violations of their civil rights. Um, one of, as a side issue, one of my law firm's pet heart interests is the legal and medical issues presented by pregnant women in custody. And just by mass, I can tell you, there's, there's got to be pregnant and postpartum women and girls detained right now. And that, uh, for me gives me a great sense of urgency to, um, get the courts involved with what's going on. Uh, it's dangerous for everybody involved to have a detained pregnant or postpartum woman.

Right. Um, so for you, this is more than just a job. This is a calling.

Yes. I, it's a vocation for sure, for sure.

Right. Um, I know one of the things that we hear about, you know, when I talk to lawyers is the burnout. Right? They kind of feel a sense of meaninglessness, you know, some of them are very successful and, you know, uh, are very, uh, distinguished, but, you know, perhaps they're not happy in their personal life and their relationships and a lot of burnout. Right. So, how do you think about, you know, finding purpose, finding meaning, finding a sense of satisfaction from what you do? Like, uh, I, I would love for you to share your thoughts and, uh, have those thoughts evolved over time?

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, I don't know that I've done that avoiding of burnout perfectly. Um, I, I find litigation in general to be more and more, um, inhuman. And, uh, I, the frustrating thing has actually been the conduct of judges where it's, it's just so demoralizing and, uh, to get rulings that are clearly unfair, clearly not based in law. Um, there's more snark to opinions now than I remember there being, and, um, that, that makes getting up and doing it again every day hard. Uh, and I, I don't know that that's been something I've really mastered. Well, I, I, um, my significant other is also a litigator. So we have the ability to appreciate what the other has going on during the day and the stress of it. Um, in terms of still wanting to do it, I, for me, it's been most important to focus on acting in integrity with my own values and, and my staff shares those values.

And so we've really taken our law practice, and we still individ, we still represent a lot of individual, individual people who have been hurt or who are, uh, facing down the federal government criminally. And, and they have poignant stories to tell and, and work to be done on every one of their cases. Um, but even in that context, I, I see us more and more focusing on what, what can we change? What can we make better because of this case, um, particularly in our, our civil practice, and that it's not just a one person's claim for damages. It's a let's get this right and fix a problem that's clearly recurring, or we wouldn't be here. And as soon as, for example, a government agency says, well, that's just our policy, then, you know, you have a problem that needs to get fixed. Um, so for me, it's been an issue. I think what's been, what's gotten me through the dark times and the really, you know, wanna hide under my comforter with my cat days, is feeling like we're doing something bigger than ourselves. That we really are working in service to our face, to our clients, and to our community with the, the work we do. Um, in some ways it's more stressful to take that on, but for me, it's helped me want, want to get up and go to work every day.

Right. It's like Mother Teresa taking care of, you know, these very sick people, but, and maybe their lives are hopeless, and maybe she doesn't win all the battles, but she feels, you know, she's making a difference because she's doing what she can to make the world a better place

And to make that individual person's life a better place. Right. Um, that, you know, a lot of criminal defense work, you see people feeling like their situation is pretty bleak, and sometimes there's not a lot I can do legally to fix the problem they're in. Usually there's something, at least something we can do. But, um, just knowing someone cares about them and is gonna stand with them and fight for them and, and make sure it's a level playing field and they're treated fairly, is huge to some people.

Right. Right. I mean, like that sense of, uh, I I'm on my own, you know? No, you are not on your own. There's somebody else who, right. Who's there for you, especially when Right. When you, at the weakest moment in your life, you know, right. At the lowest point in your life. So you, you

Know, I joke with people. What's that?

No. So you, you, you, so even if you do lose the kids, at least the fact that you were there for them, the fact that you made their life even a tiny bit better, that, and the fact that you're trying to change things based on your values, that gives you a sense of satisfaction.

Yes. To be clear, I still don't like losing, but yes, <laugh> <laugh>.

And, but you know, like, I, I joke with people, I, I am like, look, I'm not a patent lawyer. I don't do complex. I, some of the tax, criminal tax stuff we do can get pretty complex, but, you know, for the most part, I don't do a lot of hard science math stuff. What I do is take on some of the stress of the experience of the client, that they're not gonna go through this by themselves. That they're gonna have an advocate for them at every turn. And that there is someone at this very, especially in the criminal context, very lonely time in their life that is, is not going to forget about them. That's, that's not gonna let them go through this alone. And sometimes that means we've gotta fight hard and fight, you know, really nasty battles, and that's fine. But it, what's motivating that then is the, the love of the, for the client, not the ego and the desire to win.

Right. Right. 'cause sometimes you see this two footballs, right. Two lawyers going at each other where mm-hmm <affirmative>. The client is like lost, you know, it's two egos, right?

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right.

Makes sense. Um, let me ask you this. Um, now I'm, I'm from Canada, and, uh, I live in Canada, and, um, like in Canada, I, I think the mindset is, you know, we tend to forgive and forget, even when somebody does something wrong, we try to see, okay, how can we reform them? How can we help them? I, I, I don't want to, you know, talk about, uh, the us. I mean, US is an awesome country. It's very, you know, it's, it's the land of the dream. Uh, but do you feel you're fighting against a mindset of, you know, you are guilty until proven innocent or, you know, like mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Well, and it's very harsh. Yeah. And that's, that's gotten harsher, I'd say, in the past, last eight to 10 years. And, um, I practice in some pretty conservative law and order jurisdictions, and, and you have to make peace with that. And, and the one thing that even the most hard line juror can relate to is they don't wanna be unfairly accused, and they want a fair process. Um, but it is, it, you definitely see in the states, uh, convict now ask questions later mentality. And I don't, I have to chuckle. I do a lot of work, uh, still in Wisconsin, and every time I'm sending a letter to a client at the correctional institution that they're at, I have to chuckle. There's no correcting going on. They're warehousing, they're punishing. There's no absolutely no interest in making that person, giving that person the opportunity to heal and to improve.

Um, so it is, it is something Americans don't like to talk about. They don't like to look at. They, I have relatives and friends that aren't in the, uh, legal profession who say they can't imagine going into jails and prisons to see clients. I'm like, well, you, you, you're gonna be real short on work, <laugh> criminal defense if you're not willing to do that. And it's true, it's hard to do. Those jails are, conditions are terrible, and but you, someone's gotta see it and look at it and relate to the people who are living in it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We can't ignore it.

Right. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, I don't know if you saw that, uh, Netflix documentary called Making of a Murder. I think that was based in Wisconsin. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh,

It's, and, um, I'm friends with some of the lawyers on that.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, it's heartbreaking, right? I mean, just because you're poor, you're not that smart. You are, I mean, and somebody has to pay the price. It's just, you happen to be the, the guy who's standing there to, you know, take the blame or

You're a kid.

Exactly. I

Mean, a young kid. Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Like, I mean, there was a kid in that story, right? I mean, that 18-year-old kid, right.

Brandon

Dossey. Brandon Dossey. Exactly. He's not that sharp. And, you know, he gets in trouble because who he was, and he was an easy victim, and somebody has to pay the price.

Right. And he didn't have someone standing up

For him. Right. Him. Right. And the whole system was stacked against him. I mean, they literally, I mean, manufactured evidence, I think, if I'm not mistaken, from that documentary, you know, they did mm-hmm <affirmative>. All kinds of crazy things. Um,

You know, and it's so funny in the criminal defense world when Making of a Murderer came out, I don't know anyone in the criminal defense, defense world that was like, I'm shocked, shocked. I tell you, <laugh>

<laugh>. So you're saying this is just, this happens

That that is the system.

Wow. Right, right. And,

Uh, and I think that's why you see particularly high levels of, um, depression, substance abuse and suicide rates with, uh, public defenders and criminal defense lawyers. Um, Wisconsin lawyer a couple years ago had a art, had a whole, uh, piece on this and a study they did of public defenders. And it's because it, it's really hard to do this work and not feel helpless yourself. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's, it's challenging. Um, so mm-hmm <affirmative>. How do you, um, how do you, um, I mean, any, any tips on, on how to keep that sense of, uh, you know, sense of, uh, peace with yourself, um, you know, when you're day in and day out, you know, kind of mm-hmm <affirmative>. Fighting these battles, especially in the line of work that you do. I mean, I'm, I'm assuming working with pregnant people in jails, I mean, that can be heartbreaking.

Yeah. It's, um, I, again, I don't know that I've, I've really done a great job of it. Um, for me, it's, it's the mantra of this isn't about me. Mm-hmm

<affirmative>.

So there's a part of it's my faith that I'm, I'm trusting that, that the client in front of me is the person that was brought to me for a reason. And I'm, I've been called to serve them. And, um, it's really not about my comfort about things. It's about the needs and the goals and the, the humanity of the, the person in front of me. And that's in a way that's more burdensome, but in a way it shakes off a lot of the other nonsense. 'cause you're not worried about, what are people gonna think about me? Oh, the judge isn't gonna like that. And Oh boy, wait till the Ninth Circuit hears about the, you know, like, all that goes away. And you're just focused on what serves this client, what's honest, what's ethical, what's gonna help make this better for other people maybe if we win this case.

Right. And it, it allows you to just kind of not spin out over the self-consciousness and the doubt and the, the, the wor the, the messages. We all tell ourselves that you're not good enough. That why bother? I'm so tired. I mean, and, and some days you do have to just take a break those days. I just, I've had days, um, with my staff where they like, pretty much kick me outta the office and tell me to go to California and surf for two days and come back. 'cause they can't stand me. So I don't, <laugh> I've done a good job of reaching some zen-like place with my practice, but I think I can say to young lawyers in particular, stay focused on why you're doing this.

Right.

Stay focused on why you're losing sleep over this case. When I'm working with lawyers, if a trial lawyer's college, the first thing I'll ask a, a lawyer who's really struggling with the who, how we're gonna, you know, make something happen mechanically. As I'm like, well, it's obviously bothering you enough. It is so important enough that you've brought this case 2000 miles to this ranch out in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming to look at and ask for help with. So it's, there's gotta be a meaning to that for you find that meaning. And then from there we can figure out the mechanics of it.

Right. And then you're saying don't focus on winning, per se. Focus on how you are contributing to that situation in line with your values, in line with your, uh, purpose. So even if, even if you don't quote unquote win, I know if we all like to win, and especially lawyers love to win, you're saying mm-hmm <affirmative>. Then you don't, you take it less personally. You, you still feel you, you made a difference.

Right. But I will say, though, I will, I will caution this. I think it's real tempting and that there's a lot of talk in the, in the legal circles right now about fulfillment and balance and all that stuff. At least in trial work, we are hired to do one thing, and that is to win, period, stop. And, you know, there's ways we can all sue ourselves when that doesn't happen. And you win. And I think you integrate that passion and that commitment to the client into your strategy and into your, the communication of the message that you're giving in your case, whether it's to the court or the press or a jury or colleagues. So it can't be this thing where you just kind of blindly serve what your client wants you to do. 'cause their client may not have a realistic expectation. Your client may be asking you to do something illegal, you know, and you gotta say, that's, that's not gonna work.

But what will work and get you to your goal is X. And that's, that integrates something that I think is absolutely necessary if you're doing trial work, is you have to also be a good strategist. You have to know your rules, you have to know your judges. You have to know, and it only comes from being in the, well, unfortunately, you have to know what works and what doesn't. Right. And, uh, like I was explaining to a client the other day, the difference between a regular person going on Google Scholar and reading all the transcripts and digging through everything, and, and an experienced lawyer is, the experienced lawyer knows what the judges are interested in hearing right now. There might be kind of trigger words that the judges know are a hot issue with the appellate courts, or that, you know, this particular judge has a real bone to pick with the agency. And, and so you, the way you frame and the way you strategize and the way you set up from, from pre-litigation, your case still is in service to the client, but cannot be without a really sharp strategic plan. Um, the two have to be successful, you have to have both.

Right? So you are in the persuasion business, so the details matter what the lawyer is thinking, what he's hot buttons are. Mm-hmm. You know, what the jury jury's thinking, you know, all that matters. You know, what their value systems are. Because if you don't understand that, you cannot do an effective job for your client.

Right. No one's gonna hear you. You can have the most righteous claim in the world, but if you can't communicate it in a way people will hear mm-hmm <affirmative>. Why bother? And so, yeah. I, I mean, I, I tell people, I, lawyers are basically, to me, professional writers, we write on other people's behalfs. We're professional communicators. And so we have to be conscious of how we structure and plan our, our, the execution of our cases. We can't just think you're gonna show up in your, your good looks and charm are gonna win the day. That's not how any of this works. And I think a big part of that is in being sensitive to, and really listening to and appreciating what the decision maker is telling you is their values. Right. So that you can speak in a language that they hear.

Right. In other words, something that they can identify with. Something that kind of, you know, is consistent with something that they already believe. Because if you argue with them, and if you, if, if I think, you know, um, I don't know, uh, abortion is bad, you know, and you don't understand that, and you kind of argue with me and I'm the juror, you're not gonna help yourself.

Right,

Right. Right. Let me, let me ask you this. You, you said that when you watch that movie or that, uh, documentary, you know, making of a murderer, you are not surprised. And Yeah. How do you, how do you keep your integrity and, and your, you know, doing the right thing when you see things like that happening, you know, like,

Well, um, you know, you have to, you have to spend the time with the client, and you've gotta be real careful with vulnerable clients. And I mean, vulnerable in physical, mental, emotional way, um, that you're really checking in with yourself about who am I serving right now? And so the example is, you know, when Brandon Dossey's kind of fed to the wolves by the lawyer, um, and told what to confess to by the lawyer, right? The, the, I, I can tell you the, the, the chatter around the water coolers with criminal defense lawyers was, what, what was that? Who did he, and it was almost like the defense lawyer wanted to be friends with the police.

Right.

More than defend this kid. Right. And, and that's where I think you have to know, going into each client interaction, you have to check in with yourself and really make sure that the decisions you're recommending, the, because your clients do listen to you and they, they, they follow your, usually follow your lead. That you're really speaking from a place of what serves the client's interests. And, and it's hard, you know, with CJA federal appointment stuff for, um, criminal defendants, that's like the court appointments for, um, federal criminal cases. The same judge who's trying your case, who's presiding over your case, pays your bill at the end. Right. And that can make for some really awkward moments. But you have to decide, am I more worried about making this judge mad? 'cause he doesn't like an argument I made in trial? 'cause he not like that.

I just called him out on a bad ruling. Or am I gonna press forward with this kid and now I might take a 10% hit on my bill? You can't, and these are not easy decisions to make, and I don't even know that they're always conscious. Right. But the more open you are to even listening to, why am I doing this? Why am I not filing this motion? Why am I not objecting? Um, you know, why am I not asking the judge to reconsider? It may be, 'cause it really doesn't serve your client. You don't want the judge to take it out on him, or it just won't work. But it really may be, I don't want the judge to be mad at me. I want the judge to like me. And it, it's a natural human feeling. Right. And it, it's gotta be something you get comfortable saying. I I can't worry about that right now. <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>.

You know, you bring up excellent points and I see a lot of similarities between marketing and, uh, lawyers because, especially trial lawyers, because we also in the persuasion business, and one of the books mm-hmm <affirmative>. You and I talked about was, uh, Dr. Robert Choi's book called Influence. And, uh, he talks about authority. Right. I mean, uh, there's another documentary I saw the other day called Staircase, which is another case. It's a documentary about this other case. And, uh, this one, uh, expert witness made up garbage. Everybody believed him because he was the expert witness. He was, he is, he literally lies speak to authority and Yeah, yeah. Authority, which is one of the principles. You know, we tend to listen to authority figures. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If they say, you know, the sky is green, we think it's green, you know, it's scary, but, you know, it's, it's mm-hmm <affirmative>.

And everybody went along with it. And he, he put so many people in jail, you know, and he also was playing a game because he had to, he wanted to please his off DA's office or his, where he is working with mm-hmm <affirmative>. So he thought his job was not finding the truth. He thought his job was convincing people, you know, it doesn't matter. Right. Whether it's true or right or wrong, you know, he made up stuff mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, so I mean, authority, you talked about liking, which is another, the principle that, uh, that's talked about in the book. We tend to be influenced by people we like. And you are right. If I'm right, uh, you know, if I need to be liked by the judge, am I going to say things that's going to make him like me less? You know? Right. These all valid, valid, valid human, and

At least ask be honest with yourself and ask the question like that. I'm not saying that it's a perfect situation, but at least ask yourself, why am I making this choice?

Right. Right. Yeah. It's, um, this is, this is tough. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, let me ask you another question. We talked about, um, you know, finding meaning, you know, trying to be human, you know, in this, in this world that you, you, you work in. Uh, but the other thing, and I know we kind of talked about is working as a team and, and also mm-hmm <affirmative>. You talked about, you know, you kind of see yourself sometimes as bigger than a particular case, right? Like you're trying to make change happen. Like there is a problem. Some government department says, this is our policy. You say, okay, how can I not only help my client, but how can I hopefully change the way things are in line with your values and in line with your, you know, things you believe in mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, how do you, how do you, uh, reconcile that? How do you reconcile that desire to do something bigger versus just serve your client? How do you think about that? Right. How do you, you know,

Well, the client's interest always, the client's interest always leads, right? So I'm not gonna do something thinking we got this great, you know, opportunity to write a new policy or to take this up to the ninth circuit if the client wants to settle the case. And, and we've got an offer. I have, I'm ethically required to share that offer with the client and honor that client's decision after we discuss it. And by discussing it. To me, that means, this is what you told me your goals are. This is what gets you to your goal, you know, the risks and benefits of going forward. Um, and it's like you said, you know, you, the lawyer is the person in authority to some extent with a client. And can, if we can go forward, and I've had motivated clients that said, I'm in this to the end, and I I'm in this to see stuff change.

Great. 'cause then I can say, well, this, this gets us closer to your goal, or it doesn't, but the client's interest always leads the fact that we're able to, by the way we structure some of our lawsuits, and by the way we structure some of our arguments possibly make change is, is good, but the client's interest is always paramount. It's not fair to use a client kind of as your Guinea pig to test a, a unconstitutional policy in a sheriff's office. Um, if the client doesn't wanna go through the stress of the litigation and risk getting nothing, you know. But I think there is, you, you know, some of that's kind of self-selective is that you colleagues find out this is the kind of work you do, and they get a good case. That's interesting that they know you'd be interested in. There's already kind of some pre-screening going on before you ever met meet with the client. But there's, there's times when the client says, oh, I'll take that $50,000 offer, that's gonna make my life a lot better. And I'm saying, you know, this whole horizon of things we can do to stick it to the man, when the client wants us 50 grand, he gets us 50 grand and we close the case. You know?

Right.

We'll fight that battle another day.

Right. Yeah. That's, that's definitely, yeah. Interesting. Um, we, you talked about working, you know, putting together teams, right? Um mm-hmm <affirmative>. Putting together different people and working with other lawyers. Can you talk about any, any advice, any tips on how do you collaborate?

Well, yeah, collaborate. I think it's also how you, who you're looking to pick. I, I see a lot of small firms doing this now so that you don't have to have a whole stable of lawyers on staff, um, for specific talent. So from, from the time I'm doing intake in a case, I'm thinking about who, who would be good on a case like this. You know, I'm thinking to myself, I need a Spanish speaking investigator. I'm gonna need a fingerprint guy. I'm gonna who, whatever. And I'm thinking, who works well with each other? Who do I not want to deal with The drama between two? You know, like that kind of stuff, because that's reality. There's some people that don't work well together. And then what, what case, what talent will this case need legally? Will I need a really strong writer? Do I need someone who's just a, you know, crazy person in the, well, um, do I need really just a, like a heavy hitter on our letterhead and on our pleadings to shake up the other side?

Um, it's, it varies from case to case. I, I, I have the people I like to work with, and they, I frequently seek them out and ask 'em if they're available. Um, but I, as I'm teaching and as I'm out working with lawyers, and I don't, I'm not a big networker, but I, I have friends and I get out, um, I'm, I'm listening to them and I, there is part of me that's always listening for how, what could they do on a case of ours? What, what could we bring them into that would be rewarding for them and rewarding for the client? Um, and thinking, how can I make this, if I do bring a lawyer in, how can I make this a positive experience for that person? What are they gonna need from us? Not just in financial reimbursement, but how can we really make this something that's exciting and e even dare I say, fun to work on?

Um, and that takes a takes, you know, just kind of knowing people well and having a broad network of people. Um, and also being honest with yourself about what you can stand and what you can't stand and <laugh>, you know, who you work well, what kind of people you work well with, and the kind, just kind of make your life harder. So, um, I know that the staff that works for me is handpicked and they are loyal, wonderful, uh, women who, um, also are motivated by much more than, you know, pay and health insurance. They're here because they, they care about the work they do. So what I tell people is, if I've brought you in, if you're sitting up upstairs at our conference table with us, whether you're an investigator, you're one of my legal assistants, you're, you know, whatever, a consulting expert, you're here for a reason in your voice.

All, all the voices at that table have equal weight. And, um, I mean, someone's gotta be the ultimate decider. If I'm the lead council, it's me. But it's done in a, hopefully done in a way where everyone's been heard before, there's a decision. Uh, but that's taken years of managing both people in my own firm and, and working on these teams to get more comfortable with that organizing and marshaling of a litigation team. But I think it's a great way to do it because then you, you're not hiring four lawyers to call on once a year to do something. You know, people can be out doing their own things and other small firms often are interested in coming on board on an interesting case. Um, and it, it also makes me a better lawyer to work with other people and to get ideas and see how other people operate in the well. Um, I've learned in, I've learned probably more from trying cases with other people than I ever have trying them by myself.

Right. So, a few takeaways that I got out of this one is, you know, kind of having the mindset that, you know, teamwork is good for you, good for the client, and good for the people. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Who are in the team, right. As opposed to trying to do it all second, the, the realization that you have to put a lot of thought and effort in, in creating that team. Uh, and you have to

Consider and you have to nurture it,

Right? And you have to consider a lot of factors. So for example, you know, what is the person going to, uh, get out of this? What are some of the issues? You know, for example, you mentioned, you know, two people don't get along with each other. Um, what are you gonna get out of this? You know, what is, how is this gonna help the case? So really looking at, um, things from multiple angles, not just a single angle to make sure that, you know, right. All the pieces fit together. And then, um, and then so, and then nurturing those things so it's not just putting the team and then forgetting about it, but you know, it's like nurturing that, you know, garden you have, you know, you have to water it. Right. You know, take care of it. Right. Invest time in it. Right. Otherwise it's not gonna, you know, continue working the way you thought it's gonna work when you put it together.

Right. Exactly. And, and you don't want to have to make a new team midway. So <laugh>, you wanna be sure this is the team that's gonna see you through to the end, because it takes a lot of work to build these teams and it's a lot of institutional learning to relearn if you have to switch someone else.

Right. So you have to almost think through the best case from a case point of view, from your point of view, from each person's point of view. You have to think through, uh, what you need to be successful. Let's call it success criteria. Uh, you know, again, from all these different people's point of view. So mm-hmm <affirmative>. If you don't think it through, then you will end up creating something or missing something that will come back to bite you. Am I correct?

Maybe not bite, come back to bite you. It just may not be the most efficient.

Alright. Effectively

Or effective way to, to run the case. And then who knows what you've missed out on.

Right. Right. And these things, I'm sure they don't teach you in law school, right? I mean, these are things you've figured it out on your own. Yeah.

I, well, I, I was, I attended two very good law schools and, um, I have immense amount of respect for them, but law school is so busy just teaching you the law. This is not the kind of thing you're gonna learn until you're out doing it. And, and it, I don't even know that it's right for everybody, but for us, that collaborative team minded approach to cases has been very, very effective.

Right, right. This is awesome. I really enjoyed talking to you. If people wanna learn more about you and um, uh, get to know you, should they just go to your website? Joy bertand law.com?

Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. That's where our basic information is. Um, I have a Twitter handle, but it's basically, you know, just my non-sequitur throughout the day about whatever is bothering me on the news. Um, and that's diva bad girl's lawyer. Um, I have a diva bad girl lawyer blog as well. Um, but frankly, I've been so busy, I haven't really been blogging that much. But, um, that's where you can read some of our, the work we do and kind of our mindset, our worldview.

Right. One last question. Why do you do Twitter and why do you do a blog

Twitter? I do actually just 'cause it's linked to my Facebook account and I do like the quick picking up of news on Twitter. Um, I don't, I don't know that I've, I haven't gotten a single case from Twitter. We've gotten several cases and made connections with people via, um, LinkedIn and Facebook in terms of blogging. Blogging started for me as a creative outlet to warm up for briefing. So I would file, I, before I'd start writing a, a big opening brief and an appeal or a trial brief, I would blog get something out, and it gets my right brain engaged. I also paint before every trial. So it's the same idea that it's, it's it engaging part your brain that actually as lawyers kind of trained not to use. And I find from that exercise, I, I, my stuff flows a lot better when I do write, but the blog kind of is just my own world, you know, statement on things. It, it wasn't never designed to market. It just so happens a lot of people read it and comment and ends up being about legal issues. And it's my own little kind of place to just make my own stakes and things and own 'em.

Right, right. This is awesome. I really enjoyed talking to you. Uh, joy. Thank you. Thanks

For having me.

Absolutely. And, um, I wanna thank all of our listeners for listening and, uh, if you like the podcast, please share it on social media, comment on it, try a review for us on iTunes, and you can also go to the website, dominate law.com to listen to this and other podcasts. Um, and, um, and if you wanna learn more about marketing, you know, reach out to me and, uh, you know, we work with lawyers and, uh, other professionals in helping them grow their business with marketing. Thanks everyone for listening. Thanks Joy for taking your time and have a wonderful

Day. You're welcome. Thank you. You too.

Thank you.

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