How to build relationships in the digital age with Mitch Jackson

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is Nare, your host. As you all know, the purpose of this show is to help lawyers in private practice create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. Today, I'm excited, actually, super excited to have Mitch Jackson as my guest. He's a practicing trial attorney who has been doing that for more than 30 years. I'm sure some of you may have already heard of him. He was the California, uh, litigation Lawyer of the year for 2013. Plus he's known as one of the most prolific, if not the most prolific lawyer in social media. And that's kind of, those two words usually don't go hand in hand. Most lawyers are not at all on social media. So, Mitch, I'm super excited to have you. Welcome to the show,

Nora, you had me smiling. It is great to be here. And you're right, it's kind of an unusual mix, but I think as the show develops, you'll see that there's a natural compliment between being an advocate, a negotiator or trial lawyer, and then having some success on social media. So it's good to be here and hopefully I can share some tips with your audience.

Thank you very much, Mitch. Uh, as you know, the audience we have are private practice, uh, lawyers who run their own practice or thinking about running their own practice, so they're not just wearing the hat of, you know, am I the best lawyer I can be, but also all the other mechanics of building a business, you know, getting clients, keeping their clients, getting referrals, building relationships. Uh, before we jump into what you and I want to talk about today, which is how do you build relationships? How do you get more people to know you, like you and trust you in the age of social, in the age of digital media? Before we jump into that, uh, I, I just want you to take a couple of minutes just for context for you to kind of tell your story. Who are you? Where did you come from, and where are you today? So people kind of know who they're listening to.

Context is everything, isn't it? You know, I was a first generation college graduate and lawyer. I grew up on a, on a guest ranch in Tucson, Arizona. We had guests coming from all over the world, um, and staying with us and playing Cowboy. And I got to watch my mom and dad interact with some very, very famous people, John Wayne, Walt Disney, Morley, safer from Safer from 60 Minutes, a lot of other people. And I watched how they communicated, and I was always impressed by how they connected almost instantly with the guest. Uh, when I did go to law school, because that's what I wanted to do, I took some of the same approaches and principles that I watched growing up and used that, uh, with my clients in court. And fast forward 32 years later, I'm still using them today, and I know the approach and the methods that, uh, that I bring into the, into the law firm.

Uh, Noreen work really well because I'm happier today. I enjoy getting up and coming into the office more so today than ever before. And I should point out, I practiced with my wife. My wife and I did meet in law school. Um, she's one of the most talented trial lawyers I've ever met in my life. And we have two wonderful kids. Our daughter is just finishing up, or she's starting her third year of law school at USC, and our son's going to be starting, uh, school at the USC, uh, business Marshall Business School, uh, in August. So we've got an active family, and we've got a lot going on in our personal lives and, uh, the law firm's keeping us bus busy too. So that, those are the broad brush strokes of who I am and, and you know, where I've been and where I am today.

Thank you for sharing that. And, um, you know, for for our listeners before you, you know, you and I started doing this. We just had a small chat and, uh, something that you said that really stood out for me, which is, you have been married for 30 years, and your wife is also your partner, which is, you know, unheard of because a lot of people when they go into partnership in business, doesn't matter what business, usually they end up killing each other or, you know, really hitting each other. And then you talked about your kids. And usually when I interview people, they never talk about their kids. So, you know, it looks to me like you define success as not just money or fame or you know, a name on the board, but really much more than that. So talk to me a little bit about, because I mean, you, you are in trial law business, so you have to win. So, but what I notice sometimes is that winning becomes, you can't win in a relationship, right? I mean, there's no winning in a relationship, <laugh>.

Well, I, I don't claim to be a Dr. Phil of marriage, but I will tell you that, uh, Lisa's the best thing that's ever happened to me. And, and so was her family. And, uh, why don't we start off, when I was dating Lisa, and I remember asking her father for permission to marry her, we were pulling a ski boat, uh, on our way to a ski trip. And I asked Mike for permission to marry his daughter, and he pulled over to the side of the road and he looked at me, and Mike was a milkman back in the day. He used to load and unload milk crates on the back of a milk truck. And when I met him 20 years later, he owned his own dairy distributorship. He's one of the most successful guys I've ever met. No college education. He retired at 52.

Uh, he's been married for almost 60 years, three beautiful girls. So he knows what he's doing. And he said, do you know Mike, the Milkman's three keys to success? And now we're sitting, sitting on the side of the road in the middle of the desert on our way to a lake. And I said, no, I don't think I do, but I, I have a feeling I'm about ready to, to hear what those three keys to success are. And he goes, if you understand these three keys to success, you've got my permission to marry my daughter. We'd love to have a son in the family. And I've used these three keys of to success ever since, in every decision I make at the law firm over the last three decades. And I wanna share them with your audience. And the first key to success is you want to put your health, both your physical and mental health first.

If you don't take care of yourself, if you're not healthy, you're not gonna be any good to anybody else. Number two, take care of your family. Take care of your spouse, spouse, your significant other, uh, and your family and friends. That's number two. Number three, take care of your business, your profession, your occupation, your job. And Mike told me that as long as I keep those three things in the right order, as I just described, everything else will work out. And so fast forward to today, every time I've got a decision to make, every time I've gotta, you know, decide whether or not I'm going to be trying a case or be taking a deposition or out of the office doing this or that. I always think about Mike, the Milkman's three keys to success. And I try to keep those three things in the right order.

And for example, yesterday, uh, Nina, I was a little bit stressed out, and so I pushed away from the desk and we were talking before we went live. You know, I found myself down at Dana Point Harbor on my paddleboard paddling around the island for an hour. And by the time I was done, I was a new man. I came home, I had a smile on my face. And, uh, it was great seeing the kids. And when I walked into the office this morning, everything that was getting me all stressed out, it's still here. I have a new frame of mind and a fresh perspective on how I'll be dealing with some of the, uh, legal arguments in my pleadings. So I would recommend to everybody to practice Mike the Milkman's. Three keys to success, number one. The other thing I would do is, you know, really figure out what your why is.

Push aside the fact that you're a lawyer. Push aside everything else in your life. Why do you get up out of bed each morning? What gets you going each and every day? And if your answer is, well, I wanna make a lot of money, well, that's not really your why. You need to drill down. Why is it that you want to have a nice income? Well, I want to be able to take care of your family. Well, let's drill down a little bit further. What do you mean by that? Well, I'd like to be able to send my, you know, my, my, my daughter to school. Uh, I'd like to be able to take a trip once a year with my wife. I mean, whatever the reasons are, drill down and find out what your real why is, and then build your brand, uh, market your practice, take on the clients in a way that everything you do each and every day is congruent with what your why is. And when you do that, it doesn't feel like work. When you do that, you find yourself surrounded by other like-minded human beings who share an interest in a similar why. And the journey begins, and the referrals start to happen, and the opportunities start presenting themselves. So from a lawyer's perspective, everything I do is based around Mike, the Milkman's three keys to Success, and what my why is, and how I can tap into that, why, to bring value to my clients each and every day. So that's, that's the starting point, I think, for today's interview.

That's awesome. And I'm gonna confess, I didn't have Mike the milkman to advise me, so I made the mistakes. <laugh>, he

Warned me again that

He, he warned you again, and I learned the hard way. So I didn't put myself first. And let's be honest, I didn't put my family second. Yeah, yeah. I put my work first, and it was work, work, work. And then pretty much the other things were afterthought. But thank God, I woke up and I said, okay, you know what? I'm gonna be dead, or I'm gonna be on the street because I wanna have a family or, you know, kid. So, but I think it's never too late to, you know, realize your mistakes, right? And it's just really, really that simple, the way you explained it. It's just two minutes, right? Put yourself first, you know, your health yourself, your, you know, time for yourself, then your family, and then comes work. So

Let's be real. Let's be real for a second, though. It's not always easy to do, especially if you're in the middle of a trial and you've got a birthday party coming up, or you've got a soccer game coming up. And, and I get that the key is, regardless of what you've done in the past, and I mean anyone that's listening, you can change things just like that and just try, try, try to take a step back, try to reset, put things into the proper perspective, and then move forward. I do, NI never ever dwell on the past. It just does not matter. So just for those of you listening, if you, if you've got your, your three steps to success mixed up a little bit, that makes you normal, and it's okay. But the key is to do something about it and start, uh, you know, moving forward.

And while you're moving forward, do everything you do needs to be, be about creating an exemplary client experience. Everything you do needs to be about putting the client's best interest first. And if you do those things and you apply Mike the milkman's principles, that's where the magic happens. That's where you separate yourself from, from all the other noise in town, or all the other legal noise across the country. And if you add social media and digital to that, that's where you can expand your brand from local to global and really have an impact on the legal community. Uh, and frankly, if you're interested in politics, if you're interested in religion, if you're interested in sports, you can have an impact on all of these different areas of interest by using this approach. And then taking and adding social media and digital to it to just blow things up. And it's, it's just an exciting, it's been an exciting ride, and I feel like we're just getting started.

I, I totally agree. And I think the other key point you mentioned is the why, right? Like, I love the quote from Steve Jobs, and he said, uh, don't live somebody else's life. Oh, that guy has a big car, so I need a bigger car. It doesn't make, it won't make you happy. So go back to your why. What do you really want? 'cause why live somebody else's life when you can live your own life?

A absolutely, and, and you know, I think with, uh, television today and reality shows, people get a little bit confused on what reality really is. And here in Orange County, California, we have a lot of wealth. We have a lot of celebrities. Everybody lives in big houses and drives fast cars. And when I moved here from Tucson, Arizona, this is a whole new environment for me. And I started sitting across my desk with very well-known successful business people and celebrities. And what I quickly realized is the success that we believe that they're having, that's not the case. I mean, when you're on your third or fourth spouse, you're paying alimony. You're, you're spending more than you're making just to keep up appearances. That's not success. It's not happiness. So what you just referenced is so important. Figure out what works for you because there's no one else like you, especially if you're a lawyer, and especially if you're a trial lawyer.

And embrace that, embrace your strengths. Don't spend a lot of time focusing on your weaknesses. And good things will happen both in the courtroom, back at the office, and then out in the community. And the other thing that we really do a lot of is, I'm a fourth generation Rotarian. I'm very active in community service. My wife and I are both past presidents of our rotary club. Our kids are both involved. And so community service has been a nice outside activity that, you know, doesn't have anything to do with practicing law. It has everything to do with just being a better human being. And I think that's helped keep us balanced with, um, the stress and pressure of practicing law, with having our kids down by our sides, doing, you know, community service work. It's been a nice balance that I recommend everybody look at if you haven't got that component, that community service component in your everyday lifestyle.

Yeah, that makes sense. Because we, compared to the rest of the population are in the top 1% or 5% or whatever that is, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So there's no reason for us to be miserable. But when you do community service and you see what the real world looks like, you feel a little bit more grateful, you feel a little bit more appreciative for what we have.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And, um, awesome advice. So let's jump right in and, and as we start talking about, what was the topic we called it, we called it how to build relationships in the digital Age. Uh, I think people love authenticity. People love to know you. They don't want the, the, the, the, the, the the made up you, but the real you. So can you talk, I know, I know you and I kind of alluded to this topic, right? You know, how, how to share your real self. Um, so, and, and listening to your, you know, Mike's three laws of success, it's all about the real you, not this fake you, not this, you know, uh, why that's not the real why for you, right? It's really about who you really are. So what, if I'm not mistaken, you're saying is not only can you actually live it, but people will appreciate it if you are authentic about it, and if you show it, you know, digitally or outside of your personal life.

I think so.

Go

Ahead. Yeah, I, I think so, and I think in all fairness, the older we get, the wiser we get, right? So you're talking to someone with a different mindset and mentality than what I had when I was, you know, 25 years old, just started practicing law. I was a hired gunslinger, ready to take on the world. And, you know, I would like to think that today because of the principles that I, I try to walk my talk and live, I'm a better human being, a better man, a better husband, and a much better trial lawyer. But I think what's really important is for lawyers looking to, you know, build their brands. I don't like using the word market their practices. I think a better approach is to think of it as building relationships that result in new business that result in new client referrals, whatever it might be, is to empower and, and, and give themselves permission.

I guess that's the term I'm looking for, to give themselves permission to show their human side. Okay? That's the key right there. That's what's going to separate you from everyone else. Show your human side, show you know what you're doing when you're not in the office, through live video, through recorded video, through podcasting, through blog posts, through pictures on the various social media platforms. Share your life to a level that you're comfortable with doing. It's a new world. You've gotta, you know, unbutton your top button on your shirt, loosen your tie, and show the world who you are. That's what connects us as human beings. And when people start connecting as human beings, uh, they start developing rapport. When they start developing rapport as a lawyer, you become their go-to perceived expert or resource for anything important that happens in somebody's life. And so, what we've done, you know, we had our first WA website, uh, Noreen back in 1996, about, oh, I don't know, six to eight months after we put our first website up.

A million dollar case came through the internet. And, you know, once again, I've never been accused of being the brightest bulb in the lamp, but I immediately realized there's something to this internet thing. So we dived all in, I started, uh, participating on bulletin boards and writing blog posts. And I, I went about it the wrong way. I was just sharing your traditional legal blog post, uh, very technical, almost like a law review article. And looking back to what I was doing then to what we're doing today, we're completely 180 opposite. Now, today, what we're doing is we're keeping things simple. We're sharing our human side, our personal experiences, and we're connecting with people potential referral sources from all over the world. And it works extremely well. You talked about being transparent. I'm a big advocate of being transparent, but I also think you need to be strategically transparent.

If you're a bankruptcy lawyer or a financial planner, for example, you don't wanna go online and talk about, and let's just say a financial planner. You don't wanna go online and talk about all of your financial problems, all of the mistakes that you've made financially. Okay? I don't think that's going to build a lot of trust, uh, in who you are and what you do for a living. But you can also share online in a very strategically transparent way, maybe some of the stories that your clients have, uh, that you've been able to step in and help them with, of course, with their permission and pursuant to state bar rules. But you can use client stories and examples to make your point. And, you know, all of us have had challenges in life. Uh, all of us have a lot more in common than we think.

And so it's just a matter of, uh, giving yourself permission to share some of these experiences through storytelling, whether it's orally written video using pictures, and the connections start to happen. I think what really happens is you, you discover using social media an intersection between timing, need and trust, primarily from a client or potential client's perspective. We're all busy in today's world. Our two greatest assets in today's world, our time and attention, nobody has enough time or can get enough attention, and that includes our clients. So when you're sharing this content, like we're talking about when you're being human, so long as you always recognize and place a great deal of emphasis on not wasting your audience's time and attention, once again, that's where the impact is made. That's where that great initial first impression is made. And that's where the relationship starts consistently do this over the long term. And, uh, the sky's the limit.

Absolutely. You, you said a lot of things, and being a student of marketing, and I, I have been thinking about this for the last 15 years, it just really jumps out at me. And I just want to point it out from a psychological standpoint. Uh, one thing you said is, um, about the power of being transparent. A and the reason it works is, I mean, think about it. Um, until digital came along, we couldn't be transparent. You couldn't tell your story or your video and get it across to a million people. You needed to hire a movie crew and, you know, hire a production company and a distribution company and all that stuff, right? So first of all, you couldn't do this 20 years ago. So that was part of the problem. But now you can, and when you can, if you give a human being a choice between fall in love with Citibank or the Congress, or fall in love with the human being, they will fall in love with a human being because human being is like us, right?

I love that. We tend to connect with each other. We cannot connect with a thing, a bank or, or a, whatever the, uh, institution. So that's why if you look at the approval ratings of Congress, for example, it's what, 15%, or I don't know, it's like in single or, you know, like really, really low or C bank, it's almost non-existent. But you know, Oprah or any celebrity or any of these people, they have these unbelievable, because they're human. They're being authentic. The second thing you mentioned is, um, is, is about, um, you know, don't waste my time. Help me. So, because, you know, like I was asking you, should I give you a long version of your bio? And you said, well, nobody cares. You know, <laugh> <laugh>. And, and that's right, right? True, right? It's, it's, you know, we are humans. We know, right? We care about ourselves.

We don't care about somebody else. So me wasting somebody's time telling how great you are for 20 minutes or three minutes, they're tuned out by the time I finished. Absolutely. Absolutely. And why is, and the mindset you bring to the table, which is really interesting, is that what are we doing in this conversation? We are trying to help people. Are, are you getting paid? No. Am I getting paid? No, we are doing it because we know from experience, the more you give, the more you help, the more you share more you get back, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So true. So that mindset of giving, right? The mindset of helping. So when you are, when you are, so, I mean, you said so many things, and as a marketer, I'm just passing these things. So number one, Dr. Cini talks about this idea of consistency. Dr. Cini, for those of you who don't know who he is, if you're interested in marketing, you should read up on him.

He's a psychology slash marketing professor at Arizona State. He wrote two books. One is called, uh, influence, the other one is called Persuasion. Of course, lawyers are in the Influence Business, right? You influence juries, you influence clients, you influence everybody. So, so this would be an amazing book. Um, and he, he talks about six principles of influence. One is, uh, commitment. When we make a commitment, we are more likely to follow through. Second one is consistency. Uh, third one is liking. You alluded to it a lot. Like, you know, tell your human side, you know, we like people like us, we like vulnerable people. When you talk about a vulnerable story, and I love the example you gave. So if you're a bankruptcy lawyer, don't talk about you don't know how to manage money, because that's the wrong kind of vulnerable team wanna show, but show your human side, you know, you are like them, you know, made of, uh, flesh and blood and all that stuff. So I think, so, you know, we, we, we, we like people who are vulnerable. So because we are vulnerable, and, and the fact that you're admitting it, the fact that you're sharing it makes us like you more, right? Um, and you talked about share a client story, what is that social proof? So by telling a story, you are really kind of helping somebody say, Hey, I'm in the same situation as the other person that you just talked about. So if you can help him, you can help me. So true,

Right? I mean, that so true.

So, I mean, there's so much, so I, I don't want to kind of overload people with information. But

Let, let's point out one thing though, about being transparent. I think what I'm talking about is it's really important that you share helpful, useful, entertaining, engaging, informative content on the digital platform. So, an example would be, for me being transparent, and I mean this in a positive way, is getting up on a Saturday morning. The sun's coming up. I hop on my mountain bike, throwing old baseball cap on. I haven't shaved, I haven't showered. I do a ride down to the beach, you know, about 45 minutes into the ride. And this is the way my mind works. I may think of a technique that I wanna share with other lawyers about how to give an effective opening statement. I'll pull over, pull out my phone, and I'll shoot a two to three minute video. Hey guys and gals, I'm on my way down. It's a Saturday morning ride.

This just came into my mind. I wanted to share it with you guys before it, before I forget, you know, uh, what it is I wanted to say. And boom, I'll just add value. I'm done. I'll upload it on all the platforms when I get home. What I've noticed is nobody cares if you haven't shaved. Nobody cares that you're, you're sweating like a dog. Nobody cares that you're in the middle of a workout. If anything that humanizes you, and everybody can relate to that. They don't see trial lawyers out on their mountain bikes, uh, on a Saturday morning. They're used to seeing us in court with our suits on uptight, making it all about us and our clients, and not about the jury, the facts or the evidence. And so, you know, give yourself, um, permission to just show the human side of who you are and what you do, especially when it comes to your activities. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just want to kind of keep it light and let people know they can have fun doing this stuff. It doesn't have to be serious all the time.

I love it. And I love the phrase you used. Your job is to give people permission to show their human side.

Unbelievable, isn't it, <laugh>? I mean,

But it's so true though, because yeah, a lot of us get so wrapped up in this image we create for ourselves. We stop being human, or at least showing others the human side of us. And, uh, and I think when somebody like you who's very successful, who comes and says, you know what? You don't need to wear your $5,000 suit to do a video. You can just, you know, be sweating and, you know, driving a bike and, you know, but, but I think that's so powerful because it's, you're not some, anybody just sharing this, you're somebody who, who's on the other side, you know, like a lot of people are looking and saying, Hey, I want to be like him when I'm, you know, 30 years into practice, not just in terms of, you know, success, but also in terms of family and, you know, relationships and all the other stuff.

This is it. This is it. This is the secret sauce. I mean, it's, it's exactly what you and I are talking about. I, I'll tell you, mentioning books, I mean, one of my favorites is Dale Carnegie's, 1937, uh, bestseller, how To Win Friends and Influence People. And I honestly believe that Carnegie's tips and approaches back in 1937, they're more applicable today on social media. So for those young lawyers or entrepreneurs or even some of the old bulls out there that wanna just flip things upside down and start over, you know, I would get Carnegie's book, even if you've read it in the past, and, and read it again. And then apply all of those principles to social media. Things like when you're on social media, use people's first names, use their handles, uh, listen more than you Speak, help and add value. Shine the spotlight, spotlight on others.

I mean, all of these little things, and they're long-term plays. These, this is not a sprint as to what we're talking about. There's no finish line. This isn't even a marathon because there's no finish line. This is more like working out or exercise. It's just something that you consistently do. You're consistently modifying, you're improving your people skills, which is what you'll pick up in the book I just mentioned. And if you add, I'm gonna, I'm gonna share a little gem with you because I just think this is one of the best books I've ever read. If you pick up and read Bob Berg's book, adversaries Into Allies, it's all about people skills. It has nothing to do with the law, but it has everything to do with connecting with clients, with jurors. And with me winning multimillion dollar verdicts for my clients is because of the principles, uh, that I've picked up and I apply in Bob Berg's book.

That's how good it is. I won't even mentor a young trial lawyer until he or she's read this book, adversaries into Allies. So it's all about picking up ideas from other industries, uh, different approaches from different occupations, and then bringing them back into the practice of law. And by doing that, it allows you to stand out. It allows you to be different. If you're doing the same thing that everybody else in town is doing, you're probably going about it the wrong way. And so, by, by having this mindset, it really has allowed us to, to create a fresh, new, exciting brand that has resulted, you know, in cases being referred to us from all over the world. Uh, we're very selective about the types of cases that we take. But here's the thing, when we do take a case, we immediately turn around. And our single most important goal, and this is something that lawyers need to really, really look through a different lens when dealing with clients in today's world, because a client is just a tap and a swipe away from leaving you.

You need to make it all about the client. And you can't just say that you actually need to create an exemplary client experience. And if you do that, um, that connection is made, the long-term relationship is, you know, starts to be built. Uh, that client's going to be happy. I just posted a recommendation or a testimonial yesterday at our website that came from a client. He and I were working together for three and a half years, and he told me that he was going to send something over, which is, which is very nice of him, to think of us to do so, but he sent over something that was just several paragraphs long that, you know, almost made me cry Saturday morning. It was like, wow, I had no idea that I had that type of impact on his life. And, um, and so the way you make that happen is put the client's best interest first, as we should be anyway, as lawyers. But you and I both know that's not always the case. And, um, I don't know. It's, it's just a process that IFI feel like I finally figured it out. It just took me 20, 25 years to get there. And then the last 10 or 15 years, it's just been smooth sailing. And it's been fun, especially with all the change in technology.

Absolutely. By the way, I just purchased adversaries versus, uh, into allies. I I have never heard heard of that book before, so thanks for sharing that.

Okay. You're gonna love it.

Uh, I use Audible. So if you're driving or spending a lot of time on the road, you know, it's, it's a pretty cheap, like 10 bucks a book, you know, it's, uh, you can buy and just listen to them whenever you're at a gym or walking or whatever, right? So, uh, now I love Dale Carnegie, and one of his, one of the favorite quotes that changed my life is when he said, the world is full of people who are grabbing and self-seeking in that world, the rare individual who focuses on helping others get what they want has no competition. And he said it, like you said, 80 years ago, I mean, 81 years ago, but it's as true today, actually more true today, because today we almost disconnected. We are like looking at our screens then at each other. So in this world, people crave that attention, crave that somebody who cares about me, you know, and showing that, whether it's on social media or whether it's person to person, it's so powerful, you know,

It really is. And, and it's fun also to see how the way we communicate as human beings has changed. And so, as lawyers mean, we need to be aware of that. We, you know, people don't want snail mail, they want text, direct message, private message. They like digital files. As lawyers, we don't have to figure out why that's the case. We just have to understand and appreciate, uh, by asking our clients how do they want to receive information? How do they want to obtain their documents? How do they want to communicate with us? And then we need to do that 10 x so that they're happy. And another favorite quote from Carnegie that I like along these same lines, and I've actually have it taped to my monitor, it says, you can make more friends in two months by becoming interested, interested in others than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you.

Right? And, you know, as lawyers, we need to stop talking and start listening. And when you do that, you can learn so much. Active listening is one of my secrets to getting good verdicts in trial. I watch what the jurors are doing, their body language. I read their facial expression. Sometimes they're telling me no in response to an answer, but I can tell from their body expressions that their answer's really yes. And so, you know, if more lawyers would just stop talking, ask open-ended questions and start listening, whether you're in court, whether you are standing up on stage talking to the local bar association, or whether you're sitting across your desk from a new client, spend your time listening and you can learn so much more. Nobody likes to be instructed or told what to do. So the last thing we want to do as lawyers is to be that person,

Right? Yeah. That's a amazing quote. And he talks about, you know, Matt's best friend is a dog. It never says one word because it's focused on you. It's interested in you. It is like so true. I mean, like, if you come home and you have a puppy, you know, like it's as if he hasn't seen you for 10 years. He is like so into you, right? And

Absolutely. And it's funny that you even brought that up because I spoke at a convention once, and I used a picture of my dog when I walked in the front door running up to us happy that dog. I know that dog was smiling just from looking at its face. And I said, here's someone that makes me happy every time I see our dog. And we can learn so much from during the negotiation process from our family pet, or you wanna know who the best negotiator is in the world. It's a newborn baby, right? Okay. And so it's not because that baby doesn't stop talking, like most lawyers, it's because of all the other tangibles and intangibles that baby brings into the family dynamic. Once you learn that the art of negotiation, the art of persuasion, uh, the ability to win your cases, that's, that's key.

And so I'm super excited about having this conversation with you because I can tell you get it, and that tells me your audience gets it. And I'm hoping that this isn't the first time they've heard this type of conversation. I doubt it because I have a feeling you bring on other guests like this. But I'm hoping that maybe there's one thing we've talked about today that hasn't been covered in the past that somebody can hang their hat on and say, wow, that's that missing piece to my particular puzzle that I've been, you know, challenged with. And if it helps just one person, it's gonna make my day. So this is, this has just been a great conversation. And by the way, I'm not pressed for time. I'm just want you to know I'm really enjoying this.

Yeah, me too. I, I love it. And, uh, to be honest, I would love for you to come back if, uh, I don't wanna put you on the spot, I should have asked you before you came on, but, uh,

Done deal, I'd love to.

Awesome, awesome. Yeah, I mean, there's so much you're talking about, and one of the principle we didn't touch on is reciprocity. We are kind to those who are kind to us. We are nice to those who are nice to us, right? And usually the person who does the first favor ends up winning, because now the other person, I mean, like, what are you doing right now? You're talking to strangers you have never met through this podcast, and you're trying to help them, you know, whether you benefit from it or not. But the way humans are, we tend to pay it back. We tend to remember that person who did something good for us. We tend to give it back, whether it's a referral or whatever it is. That's just the way we are. Like, I mean, I mean, you know this, right? If somebody sends you a nice, uh, cake or a gift for your birthday, you're gonna remember that person's birthday, and you are gonna be almost forced just because you're a human being to reciprocate to do something nice to that person. So

True. So true.

So a lot of times people think, you know, I have to win, and you have to lose. But, but real success is sometimes, you know, the more you give, the more you help others win, the more you win.

And let's, and let's take that back into the legal profession, because sometimes it is about winning, you know, and it's about not losing, right? That's what clients are paying us for, right? And what I try to get across to, to, you know, primarily younger lawyers is that they need to learn how to separate the people from the problem, the people from the issue. You can be kind to people, but hard on issues. So generally with defense counsel, insurance, claims, adjusters, uh, even if I disagree with how they're doing business or what they're telling me on the phone, I try to be kind to them. But then, um, if I need to be, I can be hard on the issues. In other words, no, we're not accepting that offer. We'll see a trial, we can agree to disagree. So I think it's really important that lawyers understand the difference between people and issues and separate the two.

And I think you have nothing, one of my greatest assets, or the assets probably of most lawyers, it's your reputation, not just your reputation in town, but your reputation that you have with opposing counsel, with the judges down in the local courthouses, if you're in politics with the other politicians. And as long as you conduct yourself where to or brought into that environment, I just simply say, listen, Bob, it sounds like you're having a bad day. I'll see you down at court next week, and hopefully we can wrap this thing up. I always try to take the high road regardless of how I feel. And, um, I think that's worked really well for me over the years. It hasn't always been that way. You know, I was one of those guys where I would drop gloves and start throwing metaphorical punches over the phone if I thought I needed to.

But in every single case, that was a mistake. It never helped me get the results that I wanted for my client. And it adds to the stress in our lives. And so what I have noticed is I simply agree to disagree. If I need to try the case, that's great. That's what I do for a living. And we'll let a jury decide, uh, what the final outcome should be. Once I developed and nurtured and built that particular frame of mind, that mindset, frankly, the stress went away. The unnecessary, unnecessary conflict with whoever I'm dealing with over the phone went away. I almost started to treat it as a game. If somebody was having a bad day or threatening something over the phone, I almost just, my, my, my initial default mode now is to just internally treat it as a game, understand that I'm dealing with somebody that's got things going on in his life or her life that are beyond my control.

And, you know, I am in control of picking a jury. I am in control of trying a case. And when it all come, that's what it all comes down to, at least with respect to the type of law that I practice. But once I figured that out, it just eliminated all the stress from my life. And frankly, full circle years later, it's allowed us to build the type of reputation that, um, where we avoid those situations. You know, it just doesn't happen anymore. Because generally in business, we all know who the people are that like to bully other people. We also know who we can bully. And so once you develop a reputation where, uh, you're known for, you know, standing your ground and having high morals and high principles, and you're not going to be pushed around, once that happens, it stops. And, um, so my advice to young lawyers is to learn how to separate the people from the problems, and you'll have a much smoother, less stressful legal profession.

You know, what you're saying is so important for success. And I, I, I know this because I work with a lot of lawyers. We do marketing for them, and we usually don't continue working with lawyers who, who kind of take that like bullying on the issues to bullying people, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because some people don't draw the line, and that's why they're on their third or the fourth marriage, or, you know, because you can't bully your wife, you can't bully your kids, it just doesn't work. You know, they don't love you more because you bully them. You know, they'll hate you more. They, they'll resent you, right? It's unfortunate because no human being responds to threats. We respond to love. We respond to kindness, right? Yeah. So being able to separate that, I mean, the awesome thing about you is not, you're not only doing it on your personal life, meaning you're not that bully in your personal life, but even when you are dealing with the adversary or the other side, you're, you're separating the issue from the person.

You know, there's no reason to get mad and angry and agitated and yell at somebody. Uh, and when they do do that because they don't realize the difference, no reason for you to get riled up because of it. That's, that's a such a profound statement you're making. And I'll give you a practical example, right? Sometimes that, that I am right, you are wrong, because I have to win. You have to lose. People take that into all parts of their life relationships. So, for example, I'm a marketing guy and I help them with marketing, and sometimes they'll tell me I don't know what I'm doing, even though they just hired me because they thought I know what I'm doing, right? But the problem is that bullying mindsets kind of comes across, but my best clients usually know that getting passionate about an issue or you, whatever you're trying to accomplish, is so different from the human side.

And they're so good at, you know, they're kind to us. I mean, like, I have the best lawyers as clients, you know, they, they, they thank us, they appreciate my people. And you know what humans do? When you appreciate them, they work harder for you. So they have all these people working really, really hard because they appreciate them, they're nice to them. They'll say, thank you, please. But they know when it comes to law, they are as sharp, as sharp can be, but they have this amazing team, whether it's their family or whether it's their team at the office, or whether it's, you know, people like us who work with them. So I think that's such an important lesson that I got from you today that I think is one of the key differences between those successful people who are happy versus those people, you know, who are not that happy and not that successful. I'm being blunt, but it's just the truth. At least that's what I want.

I think it's, I think it is the truth. And after three decades of doing what I'm doing, and, and you know, I was in business actually for four or five years before I went to law school after college, actually helped open up Caesar's Tahoe up in Lake Tahoe, in the hotel and casino. And so I got to watch the business world along the lines of what you just described. Now. Now, don't get me wrong, I, you know, I got into the practice of law because I wanted, I specifically wanted to take on the bullies in the world, corporate bullies, wrongdoers, people, hurting other people. That's my mentality. But I also realized that, uh, you can do so from a, as a lawyer, from a, as a professional, and, uh, we'll let the jury decide, you know, how something should, should turn out. It's really important in the courtroom to be the guide, to be that trusted.

The one person the jury can look to, to get the answer to that question. They know based upon your jury selection approach and your opening statement. And oftentimes, I, I really do feel like by that point in time, I've already won the case that you are the one they're looking to, to get answers. And you're the one that's taking the high road. You're the one that's not going to get, you know, allow the mud slinging to take place down, down and dirty in the ditches. And just by finally figuring all of that out, and then walking my talk and doing that and watching other lawyers do this too, it's, it makes the practice of law enjoyable. And it also allows you to get the results that your clients, frankly, are expecting you to get. I think, you know, mark Twain said it best, and, uh, when he said, do the right thing, it will gratify some people and astonish the rest. And, uh, anytime I'm challenged with what I should be doing in response to a situation, I just think about what Mark Twain says about doing the right thing. And it, it usually guides me in the right direction.

Yes. And if anybody wants a more contemporary example, uh, the movie, the Center of a Woman, there's a speech by, uh, uh, what's his name? Al Pacino. I don't know if you have seen it, but uh, sure. Google it. And he talks about, we all know what the right thing is, but we don't do it because it's too hard. <laugh>. But, but Right. Thing always works out in the long term. At least that's my experience.

Amen. I agree.

And, um, I love talking to you and Mitch, and, um, I really, really appreciate your time and I wanna have you back, but before I let you go, I want people to kind of follow you and learn from you because, you know, you're doing all this. Uh, and I, I want them to kind of see what you're up to so they can hopefully, uh, benefit from that. Any specific websites, any specific places they can go to, to kind of keep tabs, tabs on what you're up to and how they can learn from you?

Absolutely. So I enjoy, you know, I'm a full-time trial lawyer, but I enjoy speaking around the country at different, uh, events. And what I noticed is when I did talk about professionals and lawyers using social media and digital, there was never enough time to share all of the answers and answer all the questions and approaches and techniques and things like that. So I set up a mastermind a couple of years ago. It's, uh, legal Minds Lawyer, that's Legal Minds Lawyer. It's a global mastermind. And we show lawyers and professionals how to use social media and, and the digital platforms to do everything that you and I just talked about. And I love engaging in that Mastermind on a daily basis. We have two live videos a week, so that's a great place to connect with me. Also over at Streaming Lawyer, like live streaming videos, streaming Lawyer is where I share a lot of the things that we talked about.

Different applications, different live video platforms. That's where I share videos and photos and, and non-legal tips to build your brand and market your practice. And then my law firm is over@jacksonandwilson.com. And, uh, you know, all anyone needs to do is just connect with me through any of those three platforms or on Twitter at Mitch Jackson or any of the other major platforms. And I'm here for you. I love chatting. I love engaging, I love adding value. So if anyone has questions, just reach out to me and I'll see what I can do to get you going in the right direction. So it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank

You very much. I really appreciate your time today. And, uh, I want to thank all of our listeners. If you love this podcast. I enjoyed this very much. Thank you, Mitch. Uh, please share it on social media, on, you know, Facebook, you name it, share it. And also please write a review for us on iTunes. Uh, we would appreciate that. Um, I, I enjoyed this conversation and I hope you had as much fun as I did. Have a wonderful day, everyone.

Thank you for listening to Dominate Law podcast series, brought to you by Dominate Law Marketing. For more information, please visit our website@www.dominatelaw.com. If you like our podcast, rate us or leave us a review on Facebook, please subscribe via Stitcher or iTunes, and also find us on Instagram and Twitter.