Leadership, Psychological Safety & Law Firm Wellbeing

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Dominate Law Podcast, where we empower attorneys as entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Ashton Rogers, and today we are tackling a topic that touches every law firm leader. Whether you are running a boutique practice or a multi-partner firm, we are talking about critical leadership, psychological safety, and law firm wellbeing. Before we dive in, a big shout out to our sponsor and growth partner, Equa Marketing here is something that runs underneath this entire conversation. A huge source of stress inside law firms comes from inconsistent growth. When new client inquiries slow down, that uncertainty spreads quickly across the firm from partners to teams to the overall culture. The fastest way to remove that stressor is consistent, intentional visibility. That is exactly what equa belts for nearly 20 years. They have helped law firms become the trusted choice when potential clients search online, helping them move away from feast or famine cycles that quietly burn teams out.

They are offering listeners a complimentary marketing strategy session worth $900, where a senior strategist audits your online presence, your competition, and your local SEO. Before the call, go to www.dominantlaw.com/msm to book it Now into today's deep dive, we are walking through four critical pillars, culture, psychological safety, mentorship, and leadership accountability. By the end of this episode, you will have concrete tools to build a culture where safety fuels success. To guide us four of the sharpest minds in legal, operations, psychology, and leadership, Shari Ziman, CEO of Carava Law, with over a decade in the legal industry, she has proven that when you operationalize happiness and stakeholder trust, the business thrives. Dr. Michael Unger, a world renowned resilience researcher and family therapist at Dalhousie University, who shows us why environments not just individuals must change to foster real strength. Alyssa Smith, a trauma-informed executive coach who helps leaders hack the survival brain and reset the nervous system in high stakes work. And Paul Carvan, a former Bay Street lawyer who lived the burnout cycle and found a way out, author of the Happy Lawyer. Let's get into it. Let's start with the big picture. How effectively do current law firm leadership models address stress, burnout, and psychological safety among lawyers and staff?

Thank you for the question. Um, the dominant models involve, uh, an equity partner governance approach with billable our incentives. So people are rewarded for outputs, not necessarily sustainability. Uh, and there are real financial pressures that come with these models, and that can and does lead to higher workloads, lack of autonomy, and I'd say probably a lot of fear, fear that one's professional persona is at risk and therefore the livelihood is at risk. So of course, all of that is gonna lead to burnout. Um, your question though, was really about, you know, how do law firm leadership models address that, uh, that idea of stress and burnout? And I, and I truthfully can't speak to how other firms or, um, or law firm leaders, um, address stress burnout. I would suspect there's probably a spectrum on that, where some firms have a very fulsome approach and others may have none.

So I can just really speak to what I've encountered in my years in the legal industry, uh, especially having interviewed hundreds upon hundreds of lawyers and legal service staff over the last, uh, decade. And I would say that yes, there are wellness committees and mental health programming and other employee assistant programs available, and I certainly think that's light years ahead of where things were years ago, but I'm not sure that that really addresses the root cause. Um, in that, the, the billable hour, uh, overworking lawyers, overworking support staff where endurance is, um, you know, rewarded or celebrated even implicitly, um, that is really the issue. And I think the efficacy of the programs in place is gonna be very specific to each organization and how the leadership of those organization, uh, address that. So for our firm, specifically Caravel, uh, you know, we don't follow a traditional model in the, in what I sort of started as my description at the beginning, because all of our lawyers are contractors, and we actually don't set any expectations around how much time they must bill.

They get to set the parameters around their workload. And that doesn't necessarily like negate or eliminate the pressures, obviously, because the work is still demanding and it's challenging and maybe reliant on external forces outside of, you know, one's control. But I'd like to think that we've created a place where we really consider and contemplate ways to ensure a good balance in order to avoid stress and burnout, um, where lawyers can really choose, you know, what life, what lifestyle they want. Um, and really that's for their benefit and certainly for the client's benefits. So, again, I can't speak to what other leadership is doing, but that's how we've approached this, this idea.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if a firm leader is listening and realizes their model is outdated, what is the very first operational change they should make tomorrow?

Um, you know, it's, I think for some it's incredibly hard to, you know, blow up the model that's certainly in place. I think, you know, we have to kind of contemplate that success is gonna look different for everyone. And a good place to start is just talking to the people within your organization. Are they happy? Are they not happy? And, and by the way, asking the question can be, you know, on a, on a on anonymous basis, on anonymous, non anonymous basis. But that's a really good place to start. Um, so before you throw, you know, everything out the window, really get a, a sense and a gauge of how your people are feeling, and then start to contemplate, okay, well, what are ways that we can be responsive to those feelings?

Mm,

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And Michael, looking at the data, where do you see the biggest gaps between how firm leadership intends to support wellbeing and how lawyers actually experience the workplace?

Hmm. That's a great question. And, um, I'll just sort of build on this idea that Sherry's sort of launched us into, which is that in a sense, you're, you're really talking about if you're, if you're, once you enter this conversation about resilience and leadership, promoting the capacity of those who they're supervising to, to actually become their best selves, you are in a sense talking with them. You're opening up a conversation that says maybe the incentives, maybe we have to begin to think about some negotiation to say, what is it that someone would actually value most that would actually get them through a crisis? Now, I'm not gonna go as far as Sherry, 'cause I'm understanding that most firms are gonna still be incentivizing based on billable hours and everything else. So in that particular context, what I'm understanding is that when someone approaches the idea of, you know, preventing burnout, what we wanna see then is them, them beginning to think not just about their own individual mindset as what is going to get them through this crisis.

It's also going to be about the resources that they pull around them. So, so very concretely, I was doing some, uh, seminars with the, uh, superior court justices across Canada just recently. And I met this one fellow who's very, very, uh, astute on this. And the courts are understaffed, and there's a lot of stress and a lot of turnover. And his approach to survival in this incredibly stressful environment that the, the, the judiciary are experiencing was to get to know all of his clerks in the courtroom. He knew them, he knew their names of their children. He, in a sense had a greeting to make. And when he got really stressed and he needed some extra help to manage the, you know, the courtroom and his doc, the docket, et cetera, et cetera, he could very quickly know that he could rely upon the other folks on his, in a sense, team.

Now, he was certainly still, he had a senior position, got paid a lot more than they did, but there was a genuine effort to acknowledge that his capacity to cope with stress was not his alone. And this mythic notion of this rugged individualism is simply not serving, is not going to sustain people. Because what it does is it basically builds up this, this, this incredible load, this individualizing of our problems. And what we're actually now understanding from the science of resilience, which is kind of where I enter this conversation, is that it's as much about what's around us that sustains us as it is about an individualized approach to thinking that I can just think myself through this particular problem. So it is a little bit about setting up new structures, or if you are stuck in this, you know, the, the, the, the, the constant pressure to produce, then it's gonna start, it's gonna start needing some thought about everything from, you know, where do you park and do you get a little bit of a walk to your office so you can decompress to basically who's gonna help you with some food at lunch hours to indeed do you know the names of the people that you're actually relying upon to make your job easier?

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And how can a firm measure that gap? Is that a specific question leader should be asking their associates in reviews?

Ah, well, you might, I mean, I would very much push for people to, to tell stories about not so much this, their extreme performance credentials, but to actually ask them when things have become overwhelming, what was your strategy? Um, what did you do? Or what did you re who did you rely upon? And if I was hiring the person who said that, you know, you know, I took a few extra minutes to, or I asked my supervisor to help me figure out how to prioritize my caseload, or I, um, I have formed really good relationships. And so when a crisis happened, I was able to sort of ask my administrative assistant or somebody to sort of come on board. So the person who began to say, you know, if, if, if their answer is I just pushed through, I have perseverance, it's all about me, me, me, me, me. Look, let's be honest, that person is either an incredible narcissist or gonna end up being incredibly burnt out. One of the two is gonna happen down the line. So there has to be this balance into the conversation about both what's in my mind, my, my, a positive mindset for sure, I wanna see in someone, but I'm also, I think the gap there is, does this person also know how to mobilize some of the supports they need even before the crisis occurs?

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And then Alyssa, let's talk about the biology of this. What workplace practices can often dysregulate one's nervous system and keep them stuck in survival mode instead of thriving?

Uh, first to understand this question, what workplace practices can dysregulate the nervous system and keep people in that survival mode? We have to understand what dysregulation looks like, what is it, what's happening? And most people can relate to this concept of being in survival mode, right? Because especially in the, the law field, there is just, there are an abundance of possibilities, <laugh> from why you're feeling stressed out, right? So there is the constant expectation of availability. And, um, depending on, I mean, I've, I've worked with some lawyers who their own bosses in their firm are putting them into a dysregulated state, uh, uh, all the time. And so it's, it's your system's perceived threat level is what determines how far into survival mode you are. And just to understand the basics of survival mode can be very helpful. So what happens is the systems that you need in that fight, flight, freeze, or fawn mode, you know, you're gonna be running from a threat or fighting something to the death.

That's what your system thinks is happening every time that you feel any kind of stress. So if you are in a workplace where you are, not only is your job stressful, I mean, we're talking about a lot of times secondary trauma. We're talking about all kinds of, of issues, pressure coming from above and coming from the client. So there's just a lot to put you in that space of your system, assuming we're gonna die. And it's very extreme. And it doesn't, it can't tell the difference between like, well, I just have this, you know, this court date later this afternoon, versus I'm actually gonna be something's lunch. So when your system does that, then the respiratory system is, is speeding up, or you're holding your breath, your immune system turns off because it's, nobody's fighting the flu. If you're, if you're running away from a saber tooth tiger, if you go back to caveman days, if you're running away from a, a real threat, you're not, you don't need to digest food.

Your digestive system's gonna be off. Your immune system doesn't need to be there. Your reproductive system is gonna be, you know, kind of on the back burner. And then the other systems that rev up are like, your circulatory is going to be, your heart is gonna be pounding. And there are other things that are gonna be just kind of ramped up because that the cortisol that's cosing through your body, everything thinks you're running for your life. And when you're in that state, you can't have access to your higher level thinking in your frontal lobe, in your, you know, your executive functions. Nobody's trying to do calculus on the way to the nearest tree, right? So we can't perform at our best when we are dysregulated, but we live in a stressed out world where we are constantly available. And even if you're not in the legal field, that's a, that's the case.

Well, even more so when your job can be kind of a life or death job a lot of the time, because somebody else is really trusting you, depending on the type of of litigation you're doing. So understanding what survival mode looks like, any environment that's built on sort of that constant urgency, that unpredictability or evaluation as a threat. So, so knowing that you'll be evaluated, knowing that you're gonna win or lose, and that is going to be also a threat. Um, fear-based reviews, all of it is gonna signal that danger to the body. So those are all little pieces of what can form a really unsafe nervous system environment.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And right. In a deadline-driven industry, we can always remove the pressure, right? How do we regulate during the stress rather than just waiting for a vacation?

You know, that's a fantastic question because we, no one gets to just stop every time they feel stressed, then go take a break and go take a vacation and go to The Bahamas. Right? So one of the things that I have worked with my clients and the firms that I've helped is a really simple framework for this to, that doesn't take a lot of time. And that hits a couple of main areas that reinforce to your nervous system that you are actually not running for your life. So I call it my three s framework. The first s is safety. And by this I mean, just stop and take three deep breaths. Your nervous system will read those deep breaths as something you couldn't do if you were running for your life. So it's communication. 'cause if you've ever tried to talk yourself out of stress, like, oh, this is not that big of a deal, or like, it's gonna be fine tomorrow after the court date is over, or whatever it is, it doesn't work.

Your nervous system doesn't understand talking to it. But if you can show it that you are safe and take those three deep breaths, that's the first step. The second step is self-nurturing. And the way I teach my clients to do this is taking your five senses and doing something nice for each one of them. So even if you just have time to make a cup of tea or your favorite drink, your coffee, um, and, and really sit and breathe and smell the smells and taste the taste, your system knows that you can't do that if you're running away from something. And then the third thing is safe support. So that's the third s and your nervous system, your body, your primal systems think that if you are being chased by a predator or if there's a threat of abandonment around you, you'll be kicked out of the tribe and eaten by a predator. So you have to show your system, text someone that you care about, just let them know that you're thinking of them. It doesn't have to be a big, long thing. In five minutes, you can do those three s's, reset and then have access to your executive functions again.

Right. Thank you for that advice. And Paul, you've advised, um, many partners on this. From your experience, how have leadership approaches or management styles affected lawyers' wellbeing positively or negatively?

I think the first thing to realize is that lawyers are people too. Um, so yeah, we're, we're slightly different. And so far as sometimes we've self-selected to be this, to be in this profession. Maybe we are driven, maybe we're a little risk averse, or maybe the profession has done that to us after we've been in here. Um, and so I think that first of all, we're people and the broad rules still apply to us. And then I think as you dig a little deeper, you realize that, well, there's different leadership styles and, and they generally have good things and bad things about them, and they're appropriate in different contexts and inappropriate in others. Right? So the command leadership style where you dictate what happens is really good in a crisis and can be demotivating over the long term. Um, there is the pace setting one where you are constantly go, go, go, push, push, push, that one's pretty common in law firms. And that, um, can be great for inspiring other people like you to sort of step up and do great work, but it's not necessarily sustainable over the long term. So I think that, I mean, if you think about a kitchen with only a cutting board and a knife, you'd walk in there and say, how am I supposed to make anything here? Right? We as leaders, need to have different tools in our toolbox if we are to make the most of the different situations in front of us.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? And then changing management styles feels risky to some partners. How do you convince them that softer skills lead to harder results?

Great question. Um, I think the first thing is to recognize the change often feels risky, right? And just because it's a change. And so that's not, that feeling of risk is, is just a feeling. It's not necessarily a truth. And then after that, honestly, you can just do it the simple way of like, try a little bit and see how it goes. And generally, when you're inserting a little bit more soft skills into someone's approach, they tend to see, in most cases, better results. Once again, it depends on the people they're dealing with in the specific context, but like, if you can understand where the other people are coming from, whether they're your employees or, you know, Michael's example of learning people's names and caring about them so that when you need help, they're like, yeah, I'll step up for this person. Right? The, it's, uh, it's a question of just seeing it in action, and usually that's the proof that people need.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And then Shari, back to performance. How does chronic stress or burnout affect a lawyer's ability to perform, communicate, and make sound professional judgements?

Um, well, I think Alyssa, you know, spoke to how everyone has very different stress responses, the fight, the flight, the freeze, the fa. And so certainly that's gonna impact, um, how chronic stress and burnout will affect each individual. But really anytime, and again, this, I guess further elaborating on what she's already shared, but anytime anyone's faced with what the brain is gonna perceive as a threat, uh, like a deadline or fear of reputational risk, people certainly definitely go into short term survival mode. And then what happens is, obviously, you know, long-term reasoning kind of gets left in the dust, uh, when they, when they're spiraling out, uh, in a panic. And so what, what that actually means, um, I think, is that it can manifest differently in everybody. Some people get irritable or, or, or overtly aggressive or assertive or rigid or prone to conflict.

Um, some people, you know, turtle and stick their head in the sand like a, a, a flamingo, and that can really compound, uh, the issues. But, um, everyone's gonna have a personal response, and ultimately, no matter what your response is, right, uh, if it's an unhealthy one, it's gonna lead to risk of errors and, uh, poor judgment, poor advice, procrastination, which can lead to missed deadlines that are really critical. Um, delayed decision making also that can lead to, you know, things being, uh, deadlines being missed and errors being made. And, and really ultimately the biggest concern is ethical lapses in judgment, where you're not staying true to your professionalism obligations. And, um, and I think, you know, this is a personal issue, but the reality is it leads to client harm. So it becomes a client harm issue as well, not just a personal one.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And what are the early warning signs in a lawyer's work product that suggest they're burning out before they actually crash

Again, I think that's probably a very individual, uh, thing. And, you know, our firm has, uh, from its onset created a, a role that I think is really was at the time, very unique in the legal space. And I, I've seen subsequently firms adopt this role. And I think that's great. Like, I'm thrilled to see it, which is we have a, a director of lawyer happiness. And so for us, um, in order to combat that, it's just about checking in often. And that might be, you know, there are certainly automated ways to do that, but really more bespoke, like connect with people, check in. And when you build rapport because you genuinely care about people, they're, I think, more apt to share with you, um, what their concerns are. And certainly we don't purport to be, you know, um, psychologist, but if we pick up on things that are red flags, then we're the first to say, okay, how can we take things off your plate? How can we support what looks like help to you? And so I just think about making a connection with people, really helps them feel like they can share with you, and you can certainly keep your eye on, um, behaviors that you think are going down a dangerous path.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And Michael, on the note of disclosure, what are the most common barriers that prevent lawyers from openly discussing stress, mental health concerns or mistakes at work?

Well, we certainly see this in other professions, uh, as well. I mean, obviously the stigma or the sense of judgment, uh, you know, the fear that you're not gonna be keeping up with the standard set. But since we are really here talking to the leadership, of course, it is partly about how the leadership sets a tone, um, tunes in, gives permission for people to, you know, take their vacation days, uh, to, to pace themselves, um, to, you know, to have an honest, what we often hear from many different work sites is when a, a, a fellow employee tunes in and says, you know, something looks, not that you look like crap today, but you just look a little harried. And they, you know, and the doors open to say, yeah, you know, my twins were up all night, or something like that. That there's some room in that space.

I, I guess what I'm really constantly finding here is this idea that, you know, the mental health conversation can be, it doesn't have to be overt as I need to send you to an e, you know, an employment assistance plan or something like that. It can be built in to something as simple as an office that supports having a birthday person, someone that maintains cohesion of the team and maybe has a small pot of money that allows that endeavor to occur. And that, you know, encourages people to attend these kind of communal events that allows people, what I actually find over and over is that teams that seem to be able to negotiate or that leadership allows, and there's a, a, a sense of negotiation for what people actually say they need. Whether that is, as Elisa says, a little bit of time to catch your breath, or maybe it's just better case management that's mentored by the leadership themselves. In every case, what you see is people can survive stress much more, but there has to be a bit of an open door to say, you know, if things are getting overwhelming, let me know. I'm not gonna judge. Let's see if we can coach you to some success.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? And how do we normalize the mistake sharing without normalizing negligence? Where's the line?

Um, well actually that, you know, it's funny. Um, we, we have kind of developed, and I mean, let's face it, to get through law school to be in this profession, you tend to be a very, um, assertive student. You're very, you know, proud of your academics. There, there tends to be that sort of momentum and are, am I on? And we forget sometimes if, if I might, I, I know this is a public forum, but I'd like to use the four letter F word if I could. And of course, what we don't, you know, we seldom talk about is allowing people to fail enough, right? And, and it's that sense of, you know, that, that sometimes in the failure is also that learning. And in fact, when I study resilience, one of the biggest indicators of people who are more resilient, who are more able to cope with stress over time is that they tell stories of individual opportunities where they failed this understanding of grit.

This, all this where Angela Duckworth started this idea of grit and perseverance. It's a misreading. She herself never actually said that we should just continue to persist and persist and persist. In fact, she never criticized the elite soldiers who dropped out of those elite training programs. She never was critical of them. She simply acknowledged that for them, they had done the discovery that that pathway may crawling in the mud under barbed wire. Having people shoot live ammunition over your head is not your chosen career path. And this misrepresentation in this hyperindividualism is that the people are failures. And in fact, I think the better read of that science is and my own sciences, that experimentation, pushing yourself into that zone of proximal development and learning, is actually what prepares you for future success. And that, by the way, is a function of leadership, not just of individual choice. That takes good leadership to open the door to allow people to, to, to, to live a little bit on the edge and know that there won't always be repercussions.

Right? And then going back to the questions. So Alyssa, turning mistakes into growth. How can leaders create nervous system safety, where mistakes become learning opportunities instead of triggers for shame and fear? Uh, Alyssa, your mic has bypassed again. No.

What about now?

Okay, now,

Now we can,

Yes.

This is what it was said to a minute ago. I feel like I'm getting a nervous system test, guys. I feel like that's what's happening right now. <laugh>,

Your

Corn is

Response <laugh>. I've had so many things go wrong in talks I've given, it's like I've, I feel pretty unshakeable with it, but it, you know, you never know.

It's all this scary

<laugh>. So turning mistakes into learning opportunities instead of triggers for shame and fear is thi this is really a function of a couple different things for leadership in, in the legal industry. So the nervous system cannot learn when it feels threatened, because think about that. So what you're the part of your brain that absorbs and changes and learns new things if you're running for your life. Again, I'm gonna keep going back to this example, because your system thinks that that's what's happening when you're under pressure, when it thinks that you're running for your life, we're not really interested in learning, you know, about biology or, you know, anything like that. Your, your brain is not gonna be accessible in the parts that create the new neural pathways to learn new stuff. So when you, when a leader is trying to create safety, it's really important to address behavior without attacking identity.

So if we can separate identity from behavior, that's the first thing. And keeping in mind that the human brain, especially those who are high performers and perfectionists, not gonna name names, <laugh> lawyers, and everyone that works in a law firm, um, I mean, I like, the thing is I'm not a lawyer, but I have worked with several law firms and I have many colleagues who are lawyers and some of the, the most wonderful, incredible, and also incredibly intense and perfectionistic people that you will ever meet. And that is part of what makes people really good at what they do in this field. But if what we are doing is because of that, sorry, I wanna finish this point. Because of that, because of how incredible the minds of lawyers and people in the legal field are, they're really, really good at picking up undertones. So if somebody comes in, and also you do end up getting that occasional narcissistic personality that someone mentioned earlier, you know, or the person who's completely, uh, burning out.

But typically the narcissistic personality will be in there somewhere. And the person who is the perfectionist, who is codependent, who is trying to prove his or her worth by perf perfecting what they do, and winning every case and doing it just exactly right and not making any mistakes, they will perceive when that person is handing down a, you know, hey, a correction of some sort, if there's shame underneath it. So where leaders can really come through for their teams is by communicating, Hey, you're safe here, and this behavior needs to change, or this result that happened needs to change. Um, and keeping in mind too, that a regulated leader sets that tone. So being in a space where the person coming to the correction and offering the correction with safety is also regulated. So not underestimating the power of calm, taking your five minutes or whatever it takes for you to come in a regulated place, and then really starting to have leadership normalize repair and not perfection.

So when I, so for example, in my own company, I value a team who will be quick to take responsibility for mistakes. I value a team who will be quick to learn and to try not to make the mistake again. And my responsibility to make it the best possible scenario is to a hire well, right? So, so leaders need to make sure that they are hiring based on the capacity for responsibility and repair, rather than people who are coming and feeling like they need to be perfect. And if you have someone that is really obsessed with not making mistakes, then laying out the example, I'm not expecting perfection. I'm expecting really, uh, tight procedures and, and, you know, standard operating, you know, systems and things that you're doing. So I'm making sure that you're being ethical. I'm making sure that you are making decisions in a wise way, and I know that you're human. I know that you may, you know, be in a place where you were up with the twins all night, <laugh>. And so if that happens, let's have a conversation and let's repair whatever mistakes, whatever the results of those mistakes were.

Mm, mm-hmm <affirmative>. And how do you do this when the mistake actually costs the firm money or a client? How do you maintain safety and accountability?

That's a great question. And that is a, a lot of times what law firm leadership is concerned about is like, what if it affects the bottom line if I'm not towing the line really tightly? So what we have to keep in mind, what leadership needs to keep in mind is that running it, it's, it's, even from a business sense perspective, running a well-oiled machine in your business is making sure that you have the right who in the right position. And so, a mistake today that costs the firm some money that can be repaired and equals, in the end, an employee who will a, never made that mistake again, but all but not on pain of death, they will never make that mistake again because they care about the firm. Because they don't wanna make that mistake again, because they care about their own work. They wanna take responsibility to bring things to the next level.

And leadership can help people get on board by changing the culture and by offering everyone a chance to speak into that culture. So having employees really care about it is gonna minimize mistakes like that. But if it does happen, if it happens once, it's not really a question of this person is the wrong fit, or like, I need to come down hard on them. It's a matter of how fast can this person repair? Is this the right person in the right position in the firm? And we need to know the information there. You don't have enough information when they make the mistake that costs the money. You have more information after that. How is it handled? How does this get cleaned up? Who does damage control? If it all falls on your shoulders as the leadership, then you might have the wrong who in the right, in the wrong spot. And that's a long-term decision you have to collect information for.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? And then Paul, looking at the associates, how can associates ensure they achieve success in a sustainable manner?

I have a lot of thoughts on this. Um, in fact, I have enough thoughts to fill a book. Uh, my book, the successful Associate is coming out in about a month. Um, but when we put the lens on it from leadership, what can leadership do to ensure that their associates achieve success sustainably? I think there's been a few really good points raised so far on this, on this call. One is ask questions and listen to the answers. Um, the other one is the example that you're setting at the top, right? And understanding too, like as Alyssa's just saying, how do you react when a mistake is made, right? When people generally don't listen to what you say, they listen to what you do. And so how you actually react in those moments is what is gonna determine the culture of the firm. What is gonna determine how afraid people are to make mistakes?

And that will determine whether they're playing to win or just playing not to lose. And in a way, so much of this is below the surface. I, I think of two kids, okay? One's in on the driveway, uh, shooting three point shots, and they're thinking, man, the game is tomorrow. And last time I missed that one shot, and I could see the look of disappointment on my dad's face, and the only time he has time for me is during these games. And then, well, if I win, he always has that smile and it's so good, and I just gotta get this, I gotta get this. And then the second kid is out on his driveway shooting three point shots, and he's saying, thinking, I love basketball from the outside, it looks the same. And yet from the inside, the felt experience is so different. And so when, and we can't, as leadership, we can't know the insides of the people that are working for us. The best we can do is ask, and then intently listen and understand too that there's almost always a mask at work. And you're probably not gonna get a hundred percent, um, accurate and the whole complete story. And that's okay. That's not a problem. It's just a reflection of the current context. And so your job is to listen and set a context where people can share, and as they share, you can know then how to best help them.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? And then what is one boundary setting script and associate can use with a partner who assigns work at 9:00 PM on a Friday?

Um, there's one thing. So for my book, I interviewed almost 50 managing partners, chief people officers, department heads, et cetera, et cetera. And in one interview, the partner, um, who's a department head was complaining about an associate, and then he paused and he said, you know what? It's really, I can't fault them for doing whatever it was they were doing. Like, they're professionals, they get to make their own choices. They just have to live with the consequences. And the best that I can hope for for them is that they make whatever choice they make, and then they're okay with the consequences. Regardless of how it falls. There are gonna be some firms where if you set a boundary on a Friday night, it, it's gonna mean the end of your, your successful trajectory at that firm. And there's gonna be other firms where you never have to set that in the first place. So the question is more like, as an associate, what do you want out of life? And are you setting yourself up for success?

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? And then Sheri, let's look at leadership roles in ethics. What role does leadership play in preventing errors, e ethical lapses, or client harm that stem from overwork and burnout?

Um, well, at the risk of, uh, reiterating what my co-panelists have shared, uh, I think, you know, obviously there's a pattern here. Burnout is not just an individual failing, it's a systems failing. And so it's really leadership that has to determine, um, what systems are amplifying risk and how are they mitigating, um, those concerns. So it, it certainly behooves law firm leadership to ensure there are systems in place to combat getting to that point of crisis so that no one gets to a crisis where those problems compound and become untenable. Um, you know, more granularly, does the culture of that organization encourage excessive workloads, insufficient recovery, fear of consequence if people do speak up, are there conflicting incentives, uh, where chronic overwork is celebrated, even, you know, subtly, does the culture of that organization, that firm allow for people to ask for help before problem snowball?

Does it encourage people challenging decisions, um, speaking up flagging concerns? And, uh, you know, leadership needs to create a culture that invites questions, response constructively, shares, responsibilities, models good behavior. I mean, these are all points we've covered already. Um, and you can't just say those things. You have to put them into actions. 'cause people are gonna trust, you know, once they see how you act and not what you say. And so really it's up to leadership to avoid, you know, rationalizing things like just this once, you know, I know this is our policy, but just this once, could you X, Y, z? You know, so really, um, I think that's really, uh, to me at the, you know, at the crux of how to approach that. And we just need to be willing to sort of say, what part did we play as leadership? Um, how do we contribute to an environment where people are in a place of fear or, or worse hiding mistakes? Um, what morning signs do we miss? It's really not about, you know, like who messed up, but like, how did we get there and how do we course correct to solve for those, um, organizational feelings that, that sort of created that very environment

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the, when the firm is under revenue pressure, how does a leader justify pulling someone off a case for rest?

Uh, honestly, I think that clients are, um, people too. And, uh, if you're honest about a situation within the parameters of which you're able to share, of course, but I think you find people are actually quite empathetic and sympathetic. Uh, and of course, you know, if you set yourself up for success as a business, you have sort of plans in place to support when one person, I mean, things happen unexpectedly outside of even stress, right? And burnout. So you just have to have systems in place where you have a bit of a, an emergency preparedness plan about how you're going to meet those revenue deadlines, meet, meet those client deadlines, um, in case something unexpected happens.

Mm. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And then Michael, when it comes to looking for blind spots, in your experience, what leadership blind spots most often contribute to mistakes being hidden rather than addressed early?

Wow. Um, so I think the, one of the, I think what we're really talking about here a lot is this note this, that we forget this notion, which is kind of in, in my, uh, my domain of study. It's something called allostatic load. And it's this kind of phenomenon where pushing yourself to be resilient, pushing yourself to be positive, pushing, pushing, pushing, eventually wears on you both psychologically, but also at a physiological level. It literally wears you down your internal organs. And this often leads into patterns of chronic disease, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, I think the blind spots can sometimes be that for sustainability of a person, one does need to remember that this constant stress actually has, uh, takes its toll, uh, in one way or another. But, but I think the other thing that we sometimes forget, and this conversation can very much get into all the negatives, but what we are forgetting is that people really love their jobs too.

And in fact, just like when I work with, uh, emergency room doctors or educators or whoever else, the, I think we can also remember that most people are kind of passionate about what they are trying to do, um, and that they derive a certain meaning. And what we understand is that people who are deriving meaning from their work and being put on cases that they have a certain passion for, or giving, you know, obviously some of their, um, pro bono time and that type of thing out or otherwise a volunteer activity in the community, that all of those things are actually energizing and in a sense are the counterpoint or the balance to that allostatic load, that stress that they're experiencing. And even so far, and I'll even go so far, there's a principle, we, we, and we kind of hinted at this idea of this could be very traumatic if you're working a lot with say, sexual abuse survivors or, or domestic violence cases, or this type of thing.

I was recently working with some lawyers who were literally having to go through all the evidence for child's pornography at, I mean, it was just very, very disturbing if you're not a trained, uh, mental health professional to do that. But the other side is also something called vicarious resilience. To witness people who have come through great hardship and survived and thrived even is something that lingers in us as well. We literally change, and this is some research with like, say, therapists who have worked with, um, trauma survivors or this type of thing. We actually change ourselves too. So I guess in a, in the context of leadership, are you, are you one, are you sustaining someone longer term and or ignoring the, the, the, the effort, the amount of effort that they're putting into survive and thrive, but also, are you celebrating the meaning that they're finding from their work? And indeed, some, in a sense, the celebration of the human spirit that is evident when people, you know, really push through a class action lawsuit or, or, or, or, you know, overcome a, a, the injuries from a car accident, et cetera, et cetera. That conversation also has to be celebrated as the counterpoint to the one about, you know, overwork, hardship and burnout

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then it's painful to hear you have a blind spot. How do leaders cultivate the ego strength to hear that feedback <laugh>,

I guess? Well, you know, as they say, um, uh, a lot of my work is very much about systems that are nested inside systems. I'll give you a very small example of that. The best way to bring up the grade point averages in a classroom of students is not to work directly with the students. There's a lot of research that says you work with the teacher, you make sure the teacher has resourced a good schedule, the supports they need, uh, the training, and a really great, uh, uh, uh, principal or superintendent in the school board. And it works a little bit the same in other professions as well, whether we're talking about physicians, whatever good leadership, um, is, is that sort of, that, that, um, is that catalyst. And I guess what we need then as leaders is our own mentors as well. So I guess the question is, who is your mentor?

Who are you being nurtured by? Or as I sometimes get, tell the story in some of the books I've written in about, I, I use the metaphor of fairy godmothers in the Cinderella story and how much that story of Cinderella hinges not on Cinderella coping. It's all about a fairy godmother turning a magical pumpkin into a golden carriage and whi her off to the ball. And I, I always say to leaders, so who is your fairy godparent? Who is looking after you? And who are you turning to to make sure that you have the capacity to respond? Well, when finances are tight and someone has basically screwed up badly, what's gonna keep you centered so that they can actually be their best self as well?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And Alyssa, high performance versus burnout. How can leaders hold their team to excellence without burning them out? What does high performance look like when you honor human capacity instead of ignoring it? Your <laugh>.

There you go. Wait,

There we go. Yes. Yes.

Wait, I think it's, I think it's going in and out. Can you hear everything I'm saying right now?

Yes, we can.

We can. Okay. Okay. Let's give this a shot. Um, <laugh> redefining high performance. Okay, here we go. So, um, this is a great question because it, it, it comes down to fear in, in most leaders there, if we have become accustomed to one culture that says we measure success by high performance, typically that means, you know, in a law firm, it's like, you know, winning cases and being available all the time. Being a yes person that has historically been how you define high performance. You know, this is a high performing lawyer. They, they don't have a life outside the firm. And so when you're looking at switching that, well, well, gosh, that's how the, you know, some firms have, have been successful is because they're basing their entire version of success on people who are willing to work at that level. And, you know, we even, even just, you know, at that level, where do you picture that level?

Am I talking about something down here? Am I talking about something I people who are willing to work at that level? We even in societally have an idea of high performances, people who are always on. And so where it comes down to this idea of high performance, and how do we create a culture around something that is more healthy than what we have previously thought was high performance. It's about addressing the fear that the leadership may have about if we start to prioritize sustainable capacity, for example, instead of constant output, does that mean we're gonna get a lower quality product? And so it goes back to a lot of the things that Michael's talking about here, which is how are the leadership experiencing their day-to-day existence? How are in, in the firm? How are they experiencing the quality of life that they're having? And can they see then that quality of life that is raised automatically raises output, uh, sorry, I think that's the wrong word.

Raises, um, in general. Well, honestly, it does, it raises productivity, it raises success. It raises everything when the quality of life and the experience that someone is having is from a safe nervous system standpoint. So the clarity of focus, you know, can be a, a part of our redefining of the high performance. Um, the ability to be resilient and recover and reengage quickly. The ability to take ownership for something that didn't go well, and then immediately turn, get the support they need, and then come back, you know, hitting, hitting for, for the stands. It's like, um, understanding things like that and coming back with this rede redefining of high performance. Another way that leadership can do this is the human body and, and mind spirit, everything is about rhythm. And so if you can design your firm to be able to move in a rhythm and not a grind, just grind it until it's done, you know, grind it until there's nothing left.

Um, the nervous system functions in cycles. And so leaders who really focus on, um, they're, they're respecting the focus and recovery of the employee end of the firm in general. Just understanding like, Hey, we just went through a lot of really heavy stuff as a firm, let's take a beat and like really reflect on what just happened. They're gonna get better results, they're gonna get fewer mistakes, and they're gonna get higher retention. And people who are really enjoying the experience of working there. Um, also something to think about for leadership is you don't just wanna be evaluating, uh, everybody's workload. You wanna be addressing their nervous system load. Because a, as Michael mentioned, you know, if, if the topic of a particular case is really traumatic and something that maybe the, the person has not been trained to deal with before, and so they're now carrying this heavier load, even if they're working fewer hours, they're carrying a heavier load than other people around.

And so understanding that regulation is necessary and understanding that there might be more need for regulation in those cases where they're not even working as many hours is really key. So just really showing that understanding and then listening. Listening is a huge piece. Understanding, asking for feedback. You know, if there is a mistake, you know, Hey, help me understand what happened here. Do you need more support in this? Or was this just like a one-off thing because the twins were up all night? You know? So, and then also just rewording the steps instead of the outcomes. So one of the things that, that I work with people a lot on is, uh, obviously in in law firms, we are looking for a certain outcome, right? But if that is the only thing we have our mindset on, I loved the basketball analogy, you know, I love basketball, versus if I don't get this right, then I'm not gonna get the love and attention and connection with my dad that I really need. And I've always craved and can't get any other way. Oh my goodness. The pressure, right? So rewarding the steps. Hey, you're out playing basketball, that's really cool. That's amazing. I see that you're improving, that's really great. Instead of just the outcome, Hey, you made that three pointer under so much pressure in the game, that's gonna be a really important game changer for, for a lot of leadership who are looking to balance out the pressure.

Mm, mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And then Paul, the final question of the night goes to you. If you were advising a managing partner who genuinely wants to improve wellbeing, but has a limited bandwidth, what's the one lever you'd tell them to pull first?

I think, I think we've mostly covered it, to be honest, which is ask questions and listen to the answers, and recognize that it's an iterative process. It's not gonna happen all at once. I think where I would actually go though was challenge them to say, why do you have such limited bandwidth? What's going on here? Right? Um, on the one hand it's normal, and on the other hand, it's totally not optimal. And so if you're the boss, what rules are you operating under that is having it still be like this? Oftentimes they know the answer and it's just scary, like pulling themselves out of a few files or delegating more or whatever. Um, but we do have limited resources, whether that's time, energy, money, and how we allocate those resources. There's always an opportunity cost. And so if someone has that low bandwidth, what happens when the curve ball inevitably comes? Because it always does in life. Whether it's, you know, the fifth time we say the example of the twins being up all night, or whether it's a giant snowstorm with three feet of snow, um, or whether it's anything else right there, the curve ball happens, can you handle it? And if the answer's no, then are you actually in balance? Uh, I'm not sure the answer is yes.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And then finally, I want to ask each panelist for one final 32nd power statement, the golden nugget. If you could give one piece of advice to managing partners about preventing burnout, what would it be? Cherie, starting with you?

Um, at law firms, we don't sell widgets. We are professional service and relationships are at the heart of what we do. So talk to your people, provide opportunities to gather feedback, to share feedback, to act on that feedback. Um, you know, the work we do is, is important, but people are more important. So if you put people first, I think successful follow

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then Michael,

I'd say to change the conversation from expecting people themselves to prevent their own burnout, to understanding that it's kind of a little more like dominoes. If you create a change in one of the systems around people, whether it's with colleagues and associates, uh, expectations, leadership, uh, workload, whatever, meaning that they find, those will, in a sense, like dominoes, tumble on to the psych psychological. So sometimes, rather than just expecting someone to change their mindset, think about how you can create the prompts, the nudges around them that will actually create the catalyst towards more sustainable change. And might everyone might be happier.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And Alyssa

Survival mode is expensive. <laugh>, it will cost you. So if you can find out where your own survival mode lies, in particular with how you are treating and or training your team, that is going to be the root of all good things and all the productivity and all of the burnout, resilience that your team really needs in order to succeed.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And finally, Paul,

I would just say that it always takes two to tango. And so if your people are burning out, I'm sure that they have some responsibility for it, and you better believe that you do too. And so, I would just say that you have a responsibility as the apex of the pyramid to set the right example to recognize how you're showing up and to see your blind spots. And so you just gotta make that happen one way or another, because somehow you're contributing to the situation.

And that brings us to the end of a conversation. Every law firm leader needs to hear a heartfelt thank you to Shari Ziman, Dr. Michael Ungar, Alyssa Smith and Paul Carves for bringing such honesty, wisdom, and practical insight to this discussion. We explored what really drives burnout in law firms, how leaders can create psychological safety and why healthier firms start with the tone set at the top. The takeaway that stays with me is this, burnout is rarely one person's responsibility. Yes, individuals play a role, but leaders shape the environment the way you respond under pressure can determine whether your team feels safe to grow or forced to simply survive. And a quick thank you again to our sponsor, Equa Marketing. Building a healthier firm also means reducing the stress that comes from inconsistent client flow. Equa helps law firms get found by the right clients consistently so your team can operate with more confidence and less crisis. To book your complimentary marketing strategy session, visit www.dominatelaw.com/msm. Before we go, please follow the Dominate Law Podcast and share this episode with one leader who needs to hear it. I'm Ashton Rogers. Let's go Dominate law. The.