Making time and putting yourself first with Ilya Elena Lerma

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is Nareen, your host. Today I'm super excited to have our guest, IA Elena Lema. As you all know, I'm Nareen your host, who is also the founder of a marketing company that helps lawyers in private practice create and dominate a strong online presence with full service done for you digital marketing. And the purpose of this, uh, podcast, as many of our regular listeners know, is to help attorneys in private practice create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. The reason I'm excited today is because IA has a kind of an interesting story and, um, she, you know, contrary to popular belief, is willing to put herself out there, willing to say, Hey, I struggled through this. I've been practicing for 20 years, but at the same time I had my peaks and valleys.

So she's willing to share with us some of her challenges, some of her experiences as a female, you know, trial attorney, uh, in a field that has a lot of stereotypes about, you know, when you are out there and strong, you know, then they say you're being aggressive, and then you know, all these stereotypes. And then there are male counterparts, and how they behave is different from how she behaves. Uh, so all these things. Ilia is also a mom of 2, 2, 2 kids, 14 and 11. Um, so she has been practicing for 20 years, um, and, uh, she was a partner at a law firm for approximately 10 in the last five years. Uh, as part of her soul searching and discovering, uh, and reinvigorating her passion for law, she also decided to go on her own. Um, she's the member of the executive board of the Arizona Trial Lawyers Association, and Arizona Association for Justice, and a member of the Board of Directors, um, for the last eight years. She's also an educator and lecturer in the area of business and personal liability, negligence actions, and trial practice. Um, also she's been trained, um, um, and, um, she's very proud of this and she does a lot of work even as a consultant in, um, I'm gonna let her talk about this. Um, I'm trying to, the name Skip me. So, Ilya, welcome to the podcast show. Thank you for joining us, us today.

Thank you for having me.

So, what, what I was trying to say is this partic particular training you got, uh, the Trojan Horse Method. Uh, so tell a little bit about that, because I just want to get it outta the way because I'm sure people are wondering what I was missing.

The Trojan Horse Method is a platform developed specifically for plaintiff's, uh, trial attorneys as well as criminal defense attorneys, uh, to better their skills in the courtroom. A lot of times, particularly in the plaintiff's arena, uh, attorneys don't have as many opportunities to get into trial. A lot of cases settle or they resolve, uh, prior to trial. So when they go, their skills aren't quite as, uh, sharp sometimes as defense attorneys and their ability to connect with jurors, uh, because they don't have as many practice opportunities is, is somewhat hindered. And the Trojan Horse Method teaches lawyers, um, better presentation skills so that they can, uh, convincingly and compellingly tell their client's story in a way that, uh, really is, uh, uh, persuasive to juries as well as convincing, uh, in terms of, uh, what it is you're trying to convey. Uh, so the, the Trojan Horse teaches those presentation skills, but also a structure and an order of how to deliver the information so that it's most effective. And you're not overwhelming a jury with too much information.

That's great. At the end of the day, you have to convince human beings. So like anything else, there's a science behind how to do that effectively.

Exactly, exactly. And a lot of it is getting comfortable with things that, um, we're not normally comfortable with. I mean, a lot of us are great natural storytellers when we're in a room full of our friends and family, but put us in front of a group of strangers who are there to critique the story we're bringing. And that can be very nerve wracking for even the best of trial attorneys.

Right. Um, before we jump in and talk about your journey and, and how it impacted, you know, your life, um, can you kind of set us up, tell us a little bit about, uh, you know, your story and your journey so we know where the folk was, where you felt something different has to be done?

Well, I, I started, my initial goal was to work in insurance defense. I was very, uh, interested in medical malpractice defense in particular, 'cause I was fascinated with medicine and had initially planned to go into medical school. Uh, later I became disenfranchised with, uh, the, the direction of health insurance companies. And so I sort of saw where that was going, and I later changed my focus to law. My father is an attorney and he was a judge for a number of years. And when I found the law, I, I wasn't in, in immediately enamored, but I did my first, uh, job out of law school. Um, well, let me back up. When I was in law school, I had an opportunity to work in the felony division of the Public Defender's office in southern Arizona. And that was great trial experience for me as a young attorney.

I wasn't even out of law school yet, and I was already trying felony cases, but I also found that maybe, uh, unlike my father, the criminal arena wasn't the best arena for me. So when I got out of law school, I started practicing plaintiff's personal injury, and I never left. I absolutely found that this was where my heart was, this is where my true passion was, and I was, um, you know, built, uh, pretty much to, to just do this. And so I never left. Um, I spent the first, um, several years of my practice really, uh, focusing on a lot of, um, you know, auto cases, uh, that type of thing. But I also had opportunities to work with great, um, nationally ranked, uh, trial attorneys who taught me how to build a good, uh, wrongful death case to build bad faith cases, how to take, uh, strong depositions, how to build a discovery plan.

And so, because I was such a young attorney and I had exposure very early on, um, the opportunities for my growth just really, um, really kind of launched my career. Um, but then, uh, I was about 12 years into my personal practice, I was a mother to two young girls, and I was feeling, um, a bit frustrated. I was having difficulty, um, getting my cases to trial. And, and then when I was getting to trial, I wasn't having the kinds of success, uh, that I, that I felt we should be getting for my clients. Uh, I found that there was a lot of resistance in the jury pool to giving awards, um, for injuries. There were a lot of people who just weren't, um, convinced. They really kind of bought into the myth that there was, these runaway juries and jury verdicts were too high.

And I sort of ran up against that. And it, it left me feeling very frustrated because I knew how genuinely my clients had been hurt, how much had been taken from them. And I really felt like I wasn't connecting on a level to be able to convincingly tell their story. And I was taking a lot of that very personally. Um, so one of the things that happened was I, I took a step back and I really evaluated whether or not this was the right place for me. Uh, I started to, I think it started initially with some self-doubt, um, about whether,

Can we, Ken, before we continue on that, I just had a question for you. Sure. Um, it's the elephant in the room, at least for me. You are a mom, right? And you are in this pretty tough, you know, winner, winner take all game. How, how did that start playing a role in, in what you're doing? I don't know. I'm just asking 'cause I know one of the, a lot of the listeners are moms like you. So I would love to understand, you know, because you are not this isolated thing called an attorney. You are a human being. You have relationships, you have people around you, you know, you are just like all of us. So I'm just curious, like, did you start questioning yourself? Did, like you said, self-doubt and all that stuff. So I just wanna understand how does life itself, being a mom, you know, all of that other stuff start playing a role in all of this?

Well, honestly, it was, um, it was the reason that I began questioning, um, whether or not I belonged here. Um, to be surrounded by conflict during the day, and then to come home and not be exhausted and be able to give to my children in a way that felt nurturing and whole was incredibly difficult. And I found myself, um, increasingly more frustrated and overworked and feeling a little bit, you know, just overwhelmed by the entire process and the dichotomy of trying to be peaceful at home and, you know, a nurturing mother, and then having all this, uh, conflict and, and, um, this adversarial connection, um, throughout the day. So it was everything. And that's really what un started to unravel me personally. But it's also what started me questioning about what is it that I'm trying to get out of, uh, the law. And what I realized is I was so busy trying to get, I really wasn't giving.

And when I started, the question was put to me by a close friend of mine who, who actually said, what is it you're willing to give? You don't like the life that you're living. You know, you have these two beautiful children. You have this partnership. Your life from the outside seems to be going really well because it's not, what are you willing to do differently to change your life instead of blaming people? What are you willing to give? And that question really turned my life upside down because I started to realize that I had to start giving certain things up. I had to give up the idea that I could be a perfect mom, a perfect lawyer, a perfect partner. And when I gave up that idea of perfection, um, and embraced a lot of, uh, my own insecurities and, and decided to really do something about that, uh, that's when my, my practice really changed. I started to focus more on who I was as a person and less in these roles that I had as mom and attorney and partner. And that is what really helped me to build something from the ground up. So I started,

Let, let me, let me kind of understand this. Um, so when you said perfection, you, I mean, I, I'll give a simple example. So you see somebody having a perfect vacation on Facebook. So we say, oh yeah, yeah, if my, if I can have those kind of vacations, my vacation is perfect. So you have this view of quote unquote perfect mom, perfect attorney, perfect, do, do dot from somewhere. And you realize it's not your view. It's not, it's not starting with who you are, what made you fulfilled. 'cause you, you, what you're saying is, yeah, you are unhappy and you're miserable and you felt empty and so forth, but you never really started asking the question, what am I willing to give instead of blaming others and blaming the system and blaming, you know, uh, whatever. Like, what am I willing to give? Because I mean, you're talking about lots of interesting points.

True happiness, when you get, it's not happiness. You get that car for two days, you're happy, the third day you're miserable because it's now something you have to take care of. And you know, all of that stuff. But when you give, when you serve, when you help, not with expectations, I'll do it because you will do that. But really give, that's where happiness is. And then you're talking about, you know, you are living a, I hate to use that word, I, I don't wanna be demeaning or anything but this unquote fake life, right? In the sense you are perfect for the outside world, perfect kids, perfect, this perfect, you know, partnership, but inside you felt empty because that perfect was not defined by you, or didn't come from you, or it just came from whatever other people told it should be. So you're talking about two very interesting things. I would love to hear your thoughts on both of them.

Well, I, you know, I didn't feel miserable, but I did, as you said, feel empty. I felt as though I was trying to live up to these expectations and these labels. And I think there's a lot of women, especially in this profession and in and in others as well, who feel like they, they need to be these perfect moms. They need to be able to volunteer at school and also, you know, be double boarded in their specialties. And I certainly got caught up in that. I felt like I needed to look a certain way and, um, put enough hours in the gym and put enough hours at work and put enough hours in my kids' school. And what I realized is that, um, I did have sort of a perfect outside, but my insides were a mess. And what I really needed to do was pull back some of that energy and be okay with the fact that sometimes I just had to say no, uh, that I, I wasn't going to be the perfect volunteer, uh, at school.

And that I wasn't going to necessarily be burning the midnight oil at the office so that I could, um, keep up with the other lawyers, uh, that I had to be able to pull back. And when I started investing that time in nurturing myself, um, being okay with having a day where I didn't do anything, um, I was constantly, uh, validating myself on how much I was getting done in a day rather than being able to enjoy, um, for instance, a beer in the hammock, which is occasionally something that I like to do now. Um, not, not right now in Phoenix because it's 116 degrees, but, but those simple things that, that I started to do, that I start, I started to read, um, things that nurtured my soul, things that, that began to question my reality. And what I found is that all of that imaging that, that social media as you were talking about, and these ideas that were, that were fulfilling, that's when you start living your life for someone else. And I needed to make myself a priority again and not feel like that that was a terribly selfish move. It is selfish, um, to put yourself first, but at the same time, you, you, what you're giving when you're giving from an empty cup isn't very much. And, and when I started taking better care of myself and being more selfish with my time and being less concerned about what my impressions were to other people, uh, I really started to nurture myself and grow in ways that I never could have anticipated.

Right. So you're saying nurturing starts with you because if you don't nurture yourself, you won't nurture anybody else.

Well, and no one's gonna do it for you, you know? Right. And, and I think that's sort of a misnomer, is that, you know, at some point the work is gonna get done If you're a mom and you work, um, even if you stay at home, the the work is never done. There's always something to do. And I think we're sort of waiting for this, uh, you know, time where we can sit down and rest. And unless you take it, um, and make that, uh, a priority in, in your life, it's not going to happen from you. There will always be somebody who needs something and you have to be okay with, um, being, I hate to use the term selfish 'cause it has such negative connotations, but there really is a, a selfishness to that. But it's not always, I mean, there's times when your family will come first.

There's times when your work comes first. But I started to realize that when I would say things like, my kids are my life. That was a backwards perception. My kids are enormously important to me, and I, of course, I love them, but I don't, their life doesn't end when they have children. You know, I would still expect that they do things to care for themselves and nurture themselves. And so what I realized is I was giving so much of myself, um, I was giving up my life, and I was giving up the things that I had dreams and aspirations for, and that wasn't a good thing, you know?

Yeah. I, I love that phrase. You know, there's nothing much to give from an empty cup. So when you're empty, you know, even if you're giving a hundred percent, it's still empty.

Right.

You know, I love that. And I think, um, I love this analogy that when you're flying, the first thing they say is put on your own gas mask. Because if you are, you know, if you have lost consciousness, you can't help anybody around you.

That's so true.

So it is, i I I don't think it's selfish. Now. I know we think it's selfishness, because anytime we use the word me, we think it's selfish. But like you said, I love this idea that why have an empty cup if you really wanna give first, fill the cup?

Well, and, and I, and I'm a very strong believer that, you know, we are not put on this earth to serve other people. You know, we, we are all given an individual life to live to our individual fullness, that the universe gives us those opportunities. And that it is a, it is a, um, a disheartening, and, um, it's not a full use of that gift. Uh, when you, I, I'm trying to think of the right word that I, that I'm looking, it's, it's a disingenuous use of the life and opportunity that you've been given. It is important to serve others, but, but you do, the, the service to others really comes. And this is something that I found the energy that I have now by, um, being able by, by coming from a place where I have self nurtured and where I have been able to put myself first.

And when I have been able to receive things other people give to me in gratitude, um, instead of feeling like I always have to be the one giving, I'm able to receive. And from that place, I have an abundance of energy to give and to, to share and to, um, you know, dedicate to others that I, I didn't otherwise have. I felt exhausted on the other end when I was giving all the time. But from a full cup, it's, there is abundance to share, and there really is plenty. But a lot of that is teaching and encouraging others, and in my case, especially women, to know that it's okay to not always have to be the perfect mom and, you know, all those other things.

Yeah. I mean, you're bringing up an excellent point. I mean, just talking to you, you are calm, you're peaceful with yourself, you have peace of mind. You know, you're not thinking of, you know, your daughter or you know, like all these 300 thoughts, am I the perfect mom? Did I do this? Did I do that? You're just content with yourself. And from that place of contentment, that place of happiness, now you have lot to give. Because if you are like trying to be somebody, in other words, you are, oh, did I do this? Did I do that? Am I good enough? Am I this? Am I that? How do you give?

Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, to to that point, you know, one of the things that I forced myself to start doing, and I, I struggle with this, um, frequently, but in terms of being more present, uh, I did try to incorporate more, um, meditation and self-hypnosis. And because my thoughts run away with me just as much as anyone else. And what I find is that my, my tendency is to fall back into a, a trend of doing too much, taking on too much, not nurturing myself enough. But there are times when life kind of hits you upside the head and says, okay, it's time for you to reevaluate what's important. And in that sense, my kids have been remarkably helpful because they are so, they're both competitive athletes. And so watching them and their approach, remembering that they, they're trying to have fun in addition to winning and training and, and, and all of these things, they also enjoy the process of getting better and the process of competing. And that, those are really powerful reminders to me that, um, I sometimes forget, I get caught up in, you know, the winning part too. But what, what I need to remember on a daily basis is that I'm doing this for my clients, but I'm also deriving a lot of personal benefit. And, you know, not to get too caught up in all those thoughts that, that wanna run us every day.

So let's get back to the, the profession, right? The career you said you had self-doubt. And, uh, where did that come from? Is it because you're so caught up on being this perfect attorney and fighting the stereotypes and being this perfect female lawyer and, uh, you know, winning and all that stuff that you lost the meaning of why you wake up in the morning and why you started doing the first place? I don't know, just trying to understand where did I know part of it is, you know, you growing up as a mom and being nurturing and almost like finding that on the home I'm nurturing and life giving, and here I am, life sucking. Or at least I felt, you know, that emptiness you said,

You know, I'll be honest, I think this profession, it, and, and I can't speak to many others 'cause really trial work and, and plaintiff's personal injury where it is where I've always been. But I do see a lot of people who go into the profession believing that they can be more, they have a deep sense of their own abilities, but at the same time, they have a corresponding deep insecurity, um, about themselves or their abilities. It's very strange. But I definitely had that while people always saw me as, you know, very confident and accomplished. Uh, and those things in, in retrospect were very true. I also know that I was, uh, I, I was racked with a lot of insecurity. I had terrible stage fright as a child. Um, and there are times in my career when I battled that because I would put so much pressure on myself to perform, and that if I didn't win that, that was somehow a comment on me personally.

And so that's, I think, affects a lot of trial attorneys. I think we put so much emphasis on outcome, and, and it's the good attorneys who are able to get these, you know, huge verdicts who are really the good lawyers, and it's really not the case. Um, so in a lot of ways, my, my professional development had no choice but to force me to a place where I could, uh, face my fears head on and, uh, and kind of put me in the limelight and, and thrust me into a teaching position and put me in front of people and, and force me out of my comfort zone. And in doing that, I, I really did start to embrace the fact that I'm, I'm not perfect, and I do still have these insecurities and I have these, you know, self doubts. But I'm also recognizing that, um, just through trying to be more myself, I'm also a more effective professional.

It's not trying to live up to these unrealistic expectations. It's knowing that this is a journey and, um, I am slowly getting better as a person. I'm, I'm healing a lot of old, uh, psychological wounds that I have from my own past. And at the same time, I'm bringing my clients along and being able to, you know, more and more deliver their stories in, in a way, because it relates to me, because I can relate it to other people. And, and there's a unity in story. And if there's one thing that I've learned to really love about, uh, the law right now, it is that it's all about story. And if you can get people interested in your story, in, in who you are, who your client is, they're going to follow you. They're going to to believe, because there's a sense of authenticity. There's something that everybody can connect to in your client's story. And that's the one thing, like I said earlier with the Trojan horse, I really felt, as soon as I found it, as soon as I first I did my first seminar, I thought, this is, for me, this is everything that I have been wanting so desperately because it kind of unified that self work and then also the professional development that I was looking for,

Right? So when you discovered yourself again, and you kind of start nourishing yourself, and you started filling your own cup, so you can, you have more to give from that cup. And then you started looking at law in a new way. And, and just help me understand. So one thing I heard is you started, uh, learning and, and, and practicing law the way you wanted. You perhaps started not really focusing on being the perfect, you know, this or that within the profession of law. And, uh, not worrying too much or giving too much emphasis to winning, but rather like, you know, being there, you know, in every, every interaction with your clients, with the jury, with other lawyers and so forth, and enjoying those, those moments, enjoying the journey, right? And, uh, not like going and saying, oh, am I gonna lose? Am I gonna lose?

Am I gonna lose? But just being there, right. Or not going in say, oh, I had this bad experience. Oh, it's gonna happen to me again. It's gonna happen to me again. Oh, what is that person gonna think about the dress? I'm bating, you know, all these noises, all these voices like you said, right? Um, that's in our head. And you just were able to slowly virtual, surely. And you said you did meditation slowly, virtually let go of these stories from the past and let go of these expectations from the future and rather be more and more present.

Right? Right. But I mean, it's, it's all been, it's all kind of coalesced into a, a, this perfect moment. You know, all the things that I, I have studied and that I have tried. I mean, my shelves are full of, um, books. Judo Krishnamurti was someone that I, I began reading. I started reading Osho. I started, uh, you know, reading a Course in Miracles. And it just, all of that, that self work, the meditation, the learning to step back, the, the, um, not being so wrapped up in what my image was as a mother, and then at the same time sharing that, you know, I, I have shared with, uh, a lot of people not necessarily super close to me what my own struggles were. And, and when you, when you commune with people on that nature and on that level, uh, and you share your own insecurities and your own struggles, the people genuinely care about that.

It genuinely changes them, and it touches them. And so what I learned is that, you know, being in, in front of jurors or bring in front of an audience, when you open up and you share that your life hasn't been this perfect journey, and yet you're still able to accept it and you're able to share it and you're not ashamed of it. And I embrace every single mistake that I made along the way. 'cause it was mine. I, I made certain choices, some of them bad ones, some of them terribly bad ones. But I'm willing to share them because I think if we were more willing to do that, more willing to put our imperfect pictures up on Facebook, uh, that we would have a more authentic experience. And that, that more than anything, that development of relationship, even if it's with a jury for a couple of days, even with, if it's with a client for only a couple of years, those relationships are truly how we see ourselves and how the rest of our world will unfold. And so that relationship has become primary to me.

Right. You know, a famous attorney I'm sure you all heard of is Gandhi

<laugh>. Of course.

Of course. And, and she, I mean, he, he went to the, he was, you know, he was, he started in England and, you know, he was a barrister and all that stuff. And, um, there's a scene in that movie, Gandhi, um, where, um, there was this Muslims and Hindus killing each other and, uh, uh, when India and Pakistan was getting divided. And, um, and, uh, he says, I'm going to, I'm going to go on this fast, you know, till this stops. And, uh, he's staying at the friend of his, uh, friend who's a Muslim, uh, house in Calcutta. And this guy comes and throws his knife and he says, um, they kill my son. They cut me, they cut him in front of me. They kill my family. I smashed the head of, you know, the child of the, you know, somebody from the other religion, but I don't want your death on my conscience.

And he throws this, uh, um, you know, knife. And then, uh, Gandhi goes, uh, find a child like the one you killed from the other religion and raise him as if it's your own. And, uh, it's generosity. You know, he could have said, you know, you are a murderer. You have to be punished. He kind of saw a saint even in the murderer. So the lesson I got out of this is from Gandhi's perspective, he was not trying to make this murderer wrong. He was not judging him, he was being generous. All the things you talked about, right? Nurturing yourself, it's about generosity. It changes your life. Now, from that place of nurturing, you bring that to your family, you bring that to your clients, you bring that to your colleagues, it starts moving the world and Gandhi's dead. But even today, the way he communicated with generosity, it moves the world, right? So generosity is unbelievable. We all have it. We just kind of trying to be perfect, you know, based on whatever we saw on Facebook or whatever, you know, or that person is driving a bigger car, or that person want more trials than me, whatever it is, we get caught up in, in, in the noise of life that we miss life itself, being present, being generous, you know, being kind.

I, i definitely agree with that. And I think a lot of times as attorneys, we lose sight of the value of compromise, especially in the plaintiff's arena where it comes down to dollars. You know, one of the things I tell clients, a lot of people come to me because they, they have claims and I, I really want to help them, but I don't necessarily see where I'm gonna, um, serve a benefit. One of the things I say is, there's a value, there's a tremendous value to not having to take up a sword. Litigation is a fight, and it's a long fight, and, and there's no certain outcome. And sometimes even though I think there may be a, a claim and that there has been a wrong, uh, if I, if I'm candid with the person and tell them, look, this isn't a fight. I think you're up for, you know, this is, this is a, uh, this is something that's going to severely disrupt your peace of mind.

It's going to disrupt your family. Um, and it's, it's going to take a couple of years to resolve. People appreciate when you say those things to them, because a lot of people have misconceptions about how they're gonna come into a lawsuit and get justice. And, and as long as I've been an attorney, I, I wish that that were the case. Unfortunately, this is the best system we have, but it is deeply flawed and it, and it, it does pit people against each other in an adversarial setting. And if I see opportunities for compromise, um, that, you know, maybe my client won't receive as much money as they should, but, but it's gonna keep them out of a trial, I know emotionally they're not equipped to handle, then, then that's my job. Um, maybe not as an attorney, but as a human to be able to relate that to them. That, that this is going to be, um, a gut wrenching experience. And some clients, I, I believe, are, are truly in it, and I will certainly encourage them. And, and I, I strongly believe in my skills as a trial attorney, but I also know that, that there's an emotional toll, and those things have to factor together. And we're doing a disservice to our clients if we don't really consider what putting them through that might, might do to them.

Right. And even if you are going against an adverse, you know, the attorney on the other side, he doesn't, you don't have to make him his enemy. Yes, of course, you want what's best for your client, and he or she wants what's best for their, but you know, there's nothing to, like, we don't have to make each other wrong. You know what I mean? Yes. That's a fine line line there.

I, I have found myself, there was one case I've had in the recent, uh, past where I, the lawyers on the other side were so contentious and so nasty and adversarial and difficult, and, you know, they, and, and I had taken a case on contingent fee that, that normally would've been a contract case. And it, it truly antagonized me. It brought out the absolute worst in me. I was emotional and angry and contentious in my own responses. And what I found is it was a discipline to pull back and begin to see objectively that I don't have, because my client felt this way, didn't mean that I had to. And once I, I started to gain a level of perspective, I was able to see where, you know, going further down this road was probably not going to benefit my client. And those are things that, you know, we really have to do. That's what a, that's what a good attorney does. Passion is, is a good thing, but you can be blinded by your passion. You can be overbearing in your passion to jurors who don't see things your way. And so there is a, a temperament that will better serve you if you're not emotionally engaged from beginning to end.

Right. I really, really enjoyed our conversation today, and I think a lot of attorneys, you know, young and old male and female moms and dads would love your perspective. You know, and, and, um, you're kind enough to be generous with us to share your challenges, because a lot of us wanna look good and not look bad. We won't talk about these things, right. But unfortunately, or fortunately, we all humans underneath, you know. Exactly. So all these labels, perfect mom, perfect attorney. It's all just made up stuff that we created. So, um, so I really appreciate your time today. Um, if somebody wants to learn more about you or kind of, uh, you know, ask you for advice, like, let's say I'm an attorney, young or old who wants to reach out to you, what's the best way to follow you? Uh, learn more?

Um, well, I, I, I have a, I'm not terribly good at, at marketing myself. Um, I just learned, I guess my website is temporarily down, but it will be back up. So my website is, um, my first name, Ilia, ILYA at ilia law, uh, dot com. Um, and, uh, that's also, um, it's, that's my email address, I guess. Um, my website is i law.com. Um, so those are are ways that people can find out just generally more information. And, uh, as I said, um, through the Trojan Horse Method, anyone who's interested in taking a foundational course or learning more, uh, they can reach me through the Trojan Horse Method as well.

Right. And so we are gonna include your Facebook page, your website, um, anything else and your email, if that's okay with you. Anything else you think we should include?

Um, you know, my, my business phone is certainly fine. I mean, I don't have, as I said, I don't have a, a hugely, uh, busy practice. And so if, if anyone is interested in, um, learning more information about anything I've talked about, they can try my, my, uh, office line, which is, uh, 6 0 2 8 9 9 3 0 3 5.

Perfect. We'll include the office line as well. Thank you very much, ili. I really enjoyed our conversation today. Well, thank you.

Yes. Great.

Thank you. I wanna thank all of our listeners for listening, and hopefully you learned something from this. If you like this podcast, please feel free to share it on social media. Please, please, please feel free to write a review for us. Go to the website, dominate law.com, reach out to Elia if you need her counselor advice. Reach out to us if you need any help on marketing, uh, digital marketing specifically. Have a wonderful day, everyone, and Ilia, once again, thanks for your generosity today. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your life with others, so hopefully others can make their lives a bit better. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to Dominate Law podcast series, brought to you by Dominate Law Marketing. For more information, please visit our website@www.dominatelaw.com. If you like our podcast, rate us or leave us a review on Facebook, please subscribe via Stitcher or iTunes, and also find us on Instagram and Twitter.