Making Time Personally and Professionally with Lisa Maki

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. As you all know, this show is about creating a bigger future for lawyers in private practice. How do we create more freedom in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationship? Today, I'm super excited to have a renowned lawyer. Her name is Lisa Mackey, and she works in employment law, and also she was the founder of Consumer Attorneys of California. So Lisa, welcome.

Thank you. And it's actually, I was, uh, president of the Consumer Attorneys Association of Los Angeles in 2013.

Alright. I'm sorry. I know I mi messed it up. So you're the president. That's okay. Consumer Attorneys of Los Angeles. Perfect. Uh, so for those of us who don't know you, Lisa, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, uh, what got you interested in law and specifically, um, the areas you practice in? And just give us kind of an overview of where you have come from and where you are today.

Okay. I, I'd be happy to. Um, I started my practice right out of law school. Um, I wasn't happy with the firm that I'd, um, gotten a job for, so I, I just basically began by doing what we call door law, which is basically anything that walks in the door. I had one case where a gentleman was fired after he was, um, he crashed into a plane. He was a baggage handler, so he crashed one of those carts into a plane. They fired him, Southwest Airlines fired him. But what had really been going on was he was trying to organize a union out at the Burbank Airport, um, on behalf of the Teamsters, and we believed that he was fired for union organizing. So we brought the case. I'd never had an employment case before. It was under the Railway Labor Act, which is a federal law. I was completely unfamiliar with it, but we managed to get a ninth Circuit opinion called F versus Southwest Airlines, which basically gave a private, private right of action to employees who are union organizing under the Railway Labor Act. So that was many years ago, but that was kind of my start in employment law. And then after that, I just began to learn more, um, through groups like the California Employment Lawyers Association, the Consumer Attorneys of California and Los Angeles. So that's how I got started.

Right. And when was this Lisa?

Um, that would, I believe that was around 1993. I opened my firm in 92. Right. So probably before you were born, <laugh>

<laugh>. I was born in 75, so I'm not that young. <laugh>

<laugh>.

Um, absolutely. And, um, so once you, um, once you started practicing and, and, um, you know, what was the reason, I know you mentioned, um, you didn't like the firm, uh, and that's one of the reasons you decided to go on your own. Um, but having started the practice and kind of gone out on your own, um, did you struggle in the early days? Tell us a little bit more about what you did and what you went through and what you felt like.

Yeah, I mean, I think anyone, you know, starting their own business, I, I didn't really have any business experience. I worked a lot of, a lot, a lot of different kinds of jobs, um, you know, from waitressing to editing to working on the racetrack, um, doing some commercial work. Uh, and so I, you know, I relied a lot on, uh, mentors, um, in the legal field that would help me out and guide me, um, through the process. But it was, you know, pretty much, you know, trial and error, um, and probably a lot more error at first. And, um, you know, when, when, you know, I, my first office was in my house, I remember you like burning Daily Journal newspapers to keep the place warm and, you know, running to staples every 10 minutes to get copies and all that. So, you know, things evolved from there and I was able to, you know, hire some really good people to help me out along the way and had a lot of help from, um, a lot of mentors in the profession. And I think, you know, I'm, I'm not so sure how the defense bar is, but the plaintiff bar is really, really great and very supportive. And there's a lot of really great men and women, um, who help me and other people along the way.

Right. I was gonna ask you, um, you talked about making a lot of mistakes and I know sometimes, um, the best way to learn is to make mistakes. What are some of the the top three mistakes you think you made early on?

I think that there were probably more than that, but, you know, sometimes I remember, you know, taking, because I was, you know, pretty much taking any case on and, and not really thoroughly evaluating the case and, um, you know, making sure the claims were solid or the clients are solid and things like that. So, I remember one case I had when I was doing, um, and I do a little bit of injury work. Um, I've learned now to do more kind of catastrophic injury work, but I, I had a case where the client, um, um, she had been to a dermatologist and basically, you know, getting some kind of laser hair removal and which she alleged to cause, um, a lot of burning and scarring. And, you know, she did have a lot of scarring and kind of welts on her body. And, you know, the insurance company wanted to settle the case, but they didn't think much of it.

And then at a mandatory Settlement conference, the insurance adjuster was sitting kind of near my client, and she saw, you know, unbeknownst to me, saw my client like, this is kind of gross, kind of like picking at the scabs on her body, but I didn't know this. So they're like, yeah, we wanna go to trial. I'm like, yeah, you know, this is a great case and everything. So I had my client, um, at trial sitting right next to the jury, and because I was, you know, it's probably my fourth trial or something like that, I was so focused on the case. I didn't notice she was picking at scabs on her leg during the tri during the trial. So of course I got defense, I got three jurors on my side. But, you know, kind of looking at the big picture, that's what I learned from that case and really, you know, trying to figure out what's going on.

So I know it's not an employment related case, but it's just one of those things, like even when you're questioning witnesses on the stand, like I've learned from a lot of really great trial lawyers. Like, you really need to listen. You know, rather than having, you know, every single question written out and, and all that, and focusing so much on, on the script, you know, being able to listen, um, you know, with, and listen with your eyes too, and watch what's going on and what the reaction is of the witness and what the reaction is of the jury, and taking your time, you know, as you're picking apart that witness or supporting that witness

That's an excellent ex, uh, you know, point you're making. So it's about being in the moment, you know, not getting too caught up on other things.

Yeah. And there's a really good book that, um, it's not, it's not a trial book, but it's called The Power of Now. And it, it talks a lot about, you know, being in the moment, being in the day, you know, and, and really, you know, cons. It's kind of like a, an abstract kind of concentration where you're concentrating, but you're really kind of open to all these other things because I think we've all learned this or heard this somewhere, that, you know, 80, 90% of communication is nonverbal. So even right now, you know, you may be listening, but you know, do you know, can you see my facial reactions? Can you see my gestures, my body posture? You know, all those little things that really impact, um, you know, the listener more than what the words, you know, may be saying. So, and there's that saying like, I, you know, you're, you're speaking so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying. Like every, there's all this other stuff that comes into play when we're communicating, you know, when we're selling ourselves, when we're selling to the jury or the judge, or even to a prospective client, you know, a spouse, you know, a friend and, and all that. So it's really, you know, trial work is, is very interesting. And it's, it is very much about being in the moment and, and being able to be flexible in that moment as well.

Absolutely. And I love the book, the Power of Now and Ole, and one of the things he talks about, I'm sure you know, is, uh, called Pain Body, right? Uh,

Yes. Yeah.

He talks about,

I know mm-hmm

<affirmative>. <laugh>, he talks about the fact that most pain is not real. It's all imagine meaning we make it up, especially the emotional pain. And it says that you realize that and you start laughing at it, or kind of noticing it from the outside, the less power it has over you.

Yes. It's so true. Because I think too, you know, a lot of people are really afraid to try cases, and I, I love trying cases, I think because I'm okay, you know, with the process, and people are afraid to try and fail. And, and, um, I think too, like what I took away from that book, um, a lot of it's like, you know, my pain is real, but sometimes my memories are flawed. And I've had, I have a really horrible history. I mean, I have a lot of, um, unfortunately a lot of sexual abuse, a lot of, um, violence in my background and things like that. Um, and just like other things that, you know, I, I had a different perception of what happened. So when I, when I can correct that, you know, it kind of frees you, and it doesn't have to be this thing where I'm like necessarily wallowing it, it's like acknowledging it, you know, kind of letting it go. Like, you know, like how a cloud would, you know, just like pass by, just like, you know, our thoughts are not who we are, but I'm getting pretty abstract <laugh>. So anyway.

Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate you sharing that with us. And, uh, it's very true. I mean, um, letting go of things and, uh, and in that book he describes about how some people, you know, even take their own lives because they can't deal with this, you know, emotional pain and, you know, and he was somebody like that, you know, he had gone through all kinds of emotional pain and he, you know, and then finally he realized it's all something that he can, you know, control because, um, it's all in his mind, so he can change the way his mind looks at things.

It's so true. And just the whole, the issue of the pain body and being able to, I think he talks about, um, you know, removing yourself, you know, observing the pain body that's like, you know, the first step, right? Um, you know, and, and all that. But everyone can read that book. It's really, it's really a great book. And there's a lot of, a lot of, um, you know, he's written a lot of other really great stuff, but, um, but, but also, you know, we deal, like in our practice, um, with, you know, we represent people who have been raped and, um, sexually harassed and, um, you know, beaten up and all this other thing, and their pain is very real. Um, you know, and what we try to do is, um, also help people walk through that, you know, process and, and, you know, um, and to heal from it and, and become stronger, um, as you know, because, you know, one, one great thing is when, you know, we're all like helping each other and everything.

Then, then the people that are, are in pain and everything, and when they come out of it, then they can help more people too, you know, so that, you know, everyone, you know, can be free of that pain. But it's, it's difficult. And, um, the, the problem with the legal process too, is the legal process is painful. And for so many of our clients, I mean, they're made out to be the perpetrator all of a sudden, like, everything gets blamed on them. This is their fault. And, and it just reinforces all this messaging, especially for sexual abuse victims. Like, you know, somehow they were responsible for what happened to them, which is, you know, kind of like the number one lie. But that's, that's like a huge defense that's used, and it's really, really harmful, you know, to our clients. So it's, it's, uh, it, it is a painful process, but it also, you know, we, we've had so many great success stories where our clients actually, you know, end up, um, rather than maybe working for a company or a law firm or whatever, they, they start their own business and, you know, and have done really, really well, and they're free and they're happy.

Um, you know, so there's, there's really good things that can come out of litigation too, but it can be so, so tough on our clients. Right.

And, um, you touch on a very interesting point, which is a mindset, right? Like, I mean, I unfortunately, you know, like sometimes the victim, uh, victims are made out to be the villains. And, um, and, uh, unfortunately in some cases, the society tends to, you know, kind of say yes. Uh, you know, like, uh, I watched, uh, the documentary in Netflix about making of a murder, and I don't know if you've seen it, it's about, uh, this, a couple of people in Wisconsin, I mean, um, and this, the, the people actually documented this over so many years. I mean, pretty much, if you are poor, if you are not smart, you are in trouble. I mean, because the system has to blame somebody. And, um, and in this particular case, you know, that somebody is some poor person, actually two people who are not that smart, who just get blamed because somebody has to get blamed, you know, prosecutors have to find somebody at fault. And, uh, you know, I, so it's kind of sad sometimes where just the way things are can work against, um, you know, the, the person, you know, the student.

Yes. And I, I think there's so much messaging, you know, that goes on now that's basically like paid messaging. Like I know, you know, the, um, you know, and unfortunately, a lot of, for example, conservative groups, they've got all these think tanks, and basically every day they decide, you know, what the message is gonna be that day. Is it like, you know, like who came up with trial lawyers, all of a sudden, trial lawyers are evil and they're not, right? They're, all they're doing is they're enforcing the rights to the people, you know, and in a, in a true democracy, um, you know, it's, it's, you know, on the one hand, innocent until proven guilty, but also the victims too. There's a lot of victims shaming, a lot of victim blaming. Um, and that's, that's basically geared so that people will be afraid to bring claims, and then they get kind of, I mean, for lack of a better, um, you know, term brainwashed into thinking like that, that, you know, attorneys that are really giving up, you know, so much to represent these poor people, you know, they turn into, you know, the evil trial lawyers or Right.

You know, um, you know, or even like another political example, you know, no Child Left Behind. I mean, that was just a disaster, you know? Right. Um, you know, uh, teaching to the test, I mean, people, we know that doesn't work. I mean, other countries have such better ideas about how to educate, you know, so that people learn to solve problems, you know, conflict resolution and things like that, as opposed to, you know, it's always, you know, one, you know, we're always fighting and, and I think that's what's happening in our culture. And, um, you know, and it does affect the juries and everybody, you know, people, people don't wanna complain at work, um, because they'll get fired and, you know, everyone kind of knows that. But you know, when you bring a claim, when you say, like, my boss actually harassed me, you've got a target on your back. Um, and you know, it, it, it really shouldn't be that way, but it's <laugh>, so.

Absolutely. I was just watching in the news, Steve Wynn, he's 76 years old, and finally he steps down from his company, but for years and years he has been, you know, um, abusing or harassing people, and then he even settled. So of course he knew what he did, but he got away with it. Yeah. You know, it's pretty sad that just because you have money and you have power, you can pretty much get away with anything.

Yes. And that, you know, again, the people, you know, that he was abusing too. I mean, it's, it's an abuse. It's not only like a sexual thing, it's an abuse of power. And I mean, you know, with the whole Me Too movement, you know, we see, we see what these, these paradigms are and how people like him and others, you know, who have been accused and, and you know, either prosecuted or what have you. It, it just happens over and over again in every kind of industry. And we, you know, unfortunately, we'll see, you know, we see some really, really horrible cases in, for example, like factories and stuff like that, where some of the workers may be undocumented, and I mean, they're, you know, they are so abused and they, they don't want to come forward. And especially now because, you know, they're worried about getting deported.

And, um, you know, companies know these, you know, they like hiring undocumented people because a lot of times they don't pay taxes. They don't have workers' comp coverage. They can pay less than minimum wage, you know, and these people will, they're the hardest workers, and they will never complain. I mean, they'll, they'll do anything to feed their families, you know? So, so there's that. So it's sad, you know, but I think, you know, I, I really, you know, hope, um, that, you know, our society will start looking at that and realizing that, you know, it's, it's, it's not okay. You know, and that it is okay to come forward. And I hope that's, you know, what this whole, I guess, movement, um, is about, so that people don't feel like they have to sacrifice their job for making a report about an unsafe workplace, or, you know, complaining about someone sexually harassing them or anything like that.

Right. Lemme ask you this, have you read the book called, um, influence Psychology of Persuasion?

No, I haven't, but I will <laugh> Yeah. Writing it down.

Yeah, you, you should read it. Um, it's an amazing book, uh, by Dr. Robert Cini. And, um, pretty much he's did a research, uh, study back in the eighties, and, uh, he realized there are six principles of influence, and if you use it correctly, you are three times more likely, uh, more able to influence people. Um, you know, what, what it does is it, when you use the principle correctly, it creates a moment of influence, and he calls it persuasion, almost like you are setting them up to be influenced mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, um, one of the principles is called consistency. And what it means is, um, people have belief systems. Once they have certain belief systems, it's hard for them to see anything else. Like you said, um, when this conservative media keeps painting trial lawyers as greedy, evil people, those people who buy into that mindset because they keep listening to that show or whatever, after a while, they just believe it.

They don't even question it. They don't even think anymore. Pretty much. It's almost like, check. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy's, you know, greedy. Right. You know, bad human being, like they, they don't entertain other mindsets, other ways of thinking. And it's because humans like shortcuts, we don't like to kind of, so we find shortcuts. So for example, this is why brands work, right? Brands are shortcut to, you know, reliability or in our case, reviews. So for example, um, you know, today people read reviews. It's called social proof. So same way, you know, the mindsets are so powerful and, um, and, and sometimes, um, some groups in society understand these principles and use it to their advantage. You know, like for example, one of the things that news media has is it can change what we focus on. So they, they can't make us think that, you know, they can't make us think something, but they can change what we think about.

So for example, right before the anniversary of nine 11, there's a lot of media coverage about nine 11 mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if you ask people what's, what's the number one thing, um, that happened in the last a hundred years at that time, a lot more people will say it's nine 11. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But when, when that news coverage wanes, all of a sudden people don't think about it anymore. So this is why, you know, some of the smart marketing people, especially during election times and whatnot, they can totally shift what people think about by shifting their attention. So anyways, you might enjoy that book, and I think as a, as an attorney who constantly have to influence people, right? Whether it's your jurors, or whether it's your clients, or whether it's the person you're negotiating with, you might find that book fascinating.

It's, I think it's so true, and we'll file, I'm always like, we don't really kind of, we're not, I don't, I'm not really big on like doing press conferences on cases or things like that, but some of our cases will just, you know, get pressed. They have people at the courthouse that look at the filings, and maybe if it's someone notable or you know, a company or, you know, that's a notable company, it, it'll get pressed. And then, then you see all the comments, you know, that people make about it. And it's what we see in sexual harassment cases. They're like, oh, this is a money grab. You know, it's like, wait a minute. You know, the, our system is designed, um, you know, the, the only thing we can do, I mean, we can't, you know, cut the perpetrator's penis off or anything like that, or cut off their hands or, you know, <laugh> somebody else to stop them from doing whatever they're doing.

It's, it's, you know, it damages our money. And so people have now interpreted, you know, as a, a money grab, and it's like, wait a minute, no, this is, this is your civil right to be free, you know, from assault and battery, you know, to be free from rape. And that's, you know, that's the only thing that we can get. But it's, those comments are so telling and there's a lot of, um, you know, I think, you know, kind of, I guess dumbing it down, it's like group think. And so, you know, one person says one thing and then everybody, you know. Yeah. It's that, it's that, it's that, you know. Um, and a lot of, um, you know, uh, I can't remember the guy who, who, um, who's quote, who said this. It's, um, I like to call it contempt prior to investigation. It's like we just prejudge things naturally.

And now with all the social media, which I try to stay away from, because it just, it's just a barrage of, you know, these little either sound clips or images, and, and they do, I mean, those things I think over time really influence people and, and kind of, you know, kind of code how they feel about things. So it's like this visceral response. Here's an example. So my dad is very conservative, and it's a long story, but he was out here in the LA area recently. He left this morning. And so I, you know, I asked him, Hey, you gonna watch the Super Bowl? And he's like, oh, you know, I can't do that. I can't handle all those guys kneeling. And I'm like, well, you know, dad, we have freedom of expression in this country. You know, we're not like some of these oth other countries.

And, and then I said, maybe they're praying <laugh>, you know, I mean, I was raised Catholic. It's like, you know, we, we don't really know, you know, people made like a super big deal about that, but it's like, do we really know why? You know, I was like, do you know why they're doing that? And he, you know, admitted, no, and I, you know, it's like there's, it's, it's just, um, you know, this kind of like branding of an idea that people are, are evil. If they, um, if they decide to express their themselves in a way that may not be popular to, you know, whatever media or ideas that have been kind of, you know, bred out there. I mean, we have to have freedom of speech and expression and, and, um, those things. Otherwise, you know, we're, we're not in a pure democracy, which I don't think we are anyway. But, you know, if we're, if we're gonna move more toward that. So that's my little side story on that.

Right. Um, looking at the business side of things, right? Um, like you don't learn how to run a business in law school. So what are some of the mistakes you made, or what are some of the lessons you learned along the way in terms of, you know, uh, what to do, what not to do, what to focus on, what not to focus on?

You know, I was always told, and I really believe this, if you just, you know, um, you do good work and you'll, you'll get cases, you know, and really need in, you know, a plaintiff side practice. It's, you need good cases. Like, um, if you don't have good cases, you know, you're not gonna get the results that you want. And then how do you get those good cases? You know, you do good work. So anyone, um, you know, I mean, any business I think that's, you know, successful, they're doing something, they're doing something right. Um, whatever that is, you know, probably starting with, you know, marketing of, um, of whatever, you know, whatever it is they're trying to sell. And here, you know, we're, I always say we're, we're in the justice business. You know, we're trying, we're trying to sell this principle of justice, which, you know, we shouldn't have to sell.

But I, you know, it's mainly been driven on, um, uh, you know, trying to do good work and do good work in the community as well. Give back, give back as much as you can, you know, do pro bono work as well. 'cause it's, it's important I think, for the, you know, for yourself and, and for the community as far as mistakes. I mean, I've made every mistake in the book, I'm sure, in more than once. Um, but I think, you know, um, honesty, transparency, being authentic, um, you know, and really believing in, in, you know, what, whatever it is you're doing, you know, whatever your mission is, what, um, you know, whatever your calling is. Because, you know, I think, think we're all, we all, all humans are, have talent and, and have drive, you know? And, and I think all humans have the desire to be good. And I think when, when we focus on those things, like we're a lot more happy, and, and, you know, the business is a lot happier as well,

Right? Um, pretty much Dale Carnegie, 50 or 60 years ago kind of summarized what you said in a nice, uh, statement. I'm kind of paraphrasing. He said something along the lines of, uh, the world is full of people who are grabbing and self-seeking in that world, the rare individual who helps others get what they want, has no competition,

<laugh>. Yeah. And that, I think that's so true. And when I was little, like before we had, you know, I think there were three TV channels and all that. Like I read, the way that I kind of escaped was I read everything in the house. I mean, and my, my parents were, um, my mom was a nurse, but my dad was, he ended up being like, basically a salesperson, and then she went to work for him. So they had, you know, they had Dale Carnegie and the, um, you know, how to, how to win friends and influence people. And I read <laugh>, you know, I read all those books, and it's, and I think they're, you know, they're really helpful. I think they're helpful for any business, um, you know, for lawyers and, you know, kind of how, you know, how we're like, we don't learn that in Moscow, how, you know, how we're supposed to treat people.

I mean, I think in Moscow, you know, we're like, be honest, you know, you know, but you gotta be an advocate of course. Um, you know, but, but how do we, you know, how do we learn how to listen? You know? I mean, anyone, you know, you go to a cocktail party, you go to a banquet or whatever, people love to talk about themselves, and you can just sit there and listen and be their best friend, and they ask some questions about themselves, you know, and things like that. And that, um, people like that, you know, we like to, like I'm doing now, I love to talk about myself, of course. Right? So it's, you know, there's so many, there's so many good guides that are even, you know, from the sixties and seventies, um, you know, that, that are, are just kind of guiding principles for life and also for business too.

Absolutely. Um, I, I know you, you, you notice things. You watch things and you learn. Um, I have a question for you. So for example, um, one of the things I'm noticing, again, going back to Dr. Robert CSI's book on Influence, um, he talks about social proof, authority. I mean, he talks about six things, but two of those things have a huge impact on influencing people. So social proof, pretty much what he says is, if people see others doing something, they want to do it too. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if 10 people are, you know, um, standing up in a room, more than likely the 11th person will feel the need to stand up, because we have a tendency to follow others. Uh, it's called social proof, right? So for example, reviews. So a lot of people today, whether it's a restaurant or an attorney or you know, or a doctor, they, they would google the person's name or the business name, and they want to read reviews.

Like, how many stars do you have? And, and so forth. Um, right? So now of course, 15, 20 years ago, we didn't have the internet in our pocket, so we couldn't type in the lawyer's name. Now it's takes seconds. And just like, it takes seconds for them to find that restaurant that has good reviews, it takes seconds for them to find that lawyer. So that's one of the differences in 2018 versus, you know, let's say, you know, 1998, right? The other one is authority. We tend to listen to authority figures. A bad example of that is, you know, Hitler murdered 65 million people and everybody else went along with it. I mean, he didn't do it himself. Right? Right. Why? Because they felt he was an authority figure. Good example of authority is, you know, let's say Oprah goes on Oprah show and says, Hey, you know, you need to read a Carle is the power of now.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And boom million people go and buy that book. Right? Right. Why authority mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we believe authority figures. So, um, some of the smarter business owners, lawyers, doctors, et cetera, one of the things they focus on is positioning themselves as authorities in the eyes of their clients. How do you do it? You know, be interviewed on tv, for example, right? Who gets interviewed, important people. So if you're interviewed on tv, I think you're important. If I think you're important, I have a big case that my life depends on. I'm gonna pick you. Why? Because you are important. You are an authority, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, so my question is, unfortunately we can't fight reality. Reality is reality. We live in a world of social media. We live in a world of, you know, like we live in 2018. How have you changed the way you think about marketing yourself, um, you know, by leveraging some of these principles? Like how do you become an authority? How do you become, how do you create more social proof? You know, because, um, you know, we, we don't live, you know, in Iceland, we live in, you know, a pretty advanced country with all these technologies.

Iceland is not advanced. I'm sorry, that's not the that's not what I meant.

No, I know what you mean. It's, it's just a, it's again, you know, yeah, there's a lot of social media. I'm not, you know, personally just because, um, you know, I've not like chosen to heavily like marketed in social media most, I mean, most of my referrals are just word of mouth, I think. I mean, yeah, I have an online presence and all that, but I know a lot of people are doing that. Um, you know, where even there's attorneys that basically, they're just referral attorneys. They have, you know, spend a lot on advertising and marketing, and they get cases and they send them somewhere else. But, um, so I'm, you know, I, um, that's just not what something I do. Um, but I agree, like, the whole issue of reviews and everything, I mean, mean I have bad reviews from people I've sued that said they were clients I've had, you know, and you really can't do anything about that.

Um, you know, some people pay people to post, you know, favorable things, or they just, you know, engage in a big campaign of that. I haven't done that. Um, but I think, you know, I just try to do good work and I, I try to, um, be a problem solver and, you know, try to do good things. And it, it seems that, you know, the business just comes from that. So I'm probably not the best person to talk about, you know, social proof. And yeah, one case is I've won cases, I've lost cases. But one thing I know is I will try cases. I mean, there's a lot of people out there that won't. I will, I love it. I love juries. I mean, our, our jury system is so important to, um, to a democracy. And that's a whole nother topic for the other, for another day. Just how many arbitration agreements are out there. And all these cases that really should be heard by a jury are being heard by an arbitrator paid by the company. I mean, how unfair is that? Right. <laugh>. Right,

Right. No, absolutely. Um, yeah, the system unfortunately always favors the, the, the, the, the, you know, the haves.

Yeah. And yeah. And yeah, there was something you said earlier, and I wanted to, to just address it with a little anecdote, is one time I was like, golfing somewhere, and there was an older, older white guy, you know, had a lot of business experience, and we were just talking about people in life and everything. And he said, um, you know, he said, my theory is that there's takers and there's makers, you know, um, you know, as opposed to like, give and take. It's, and I always thought that was really interesting. And I always think about that, you know, like, am am I, you know, am I creating a better world? Am I creating a better, um, situation for my clients or, you know, my colleagues, my family, or am I just, am I just taking, you know, what, you know, what is my motive? What, you know, what's kind of the end game? Um, so that's just another little thing that I think about often, you know, just to make sure like my motives are, are pure and, and, um, that I'm, that I'm moving the ball in the right direction for the right reasons.

Right, right. Um, so going back to the theme of the podcast, we, we talked about time, money, purpose, and relationships. We spent a lot of time, um, you know, uh, talking about some of your lessons. Um, how do you, like, if you were to compare yourself in 1995 or 1998 to 2018, how do you spend your time at work today versus back then? I just wanna kind of share with our listeners, you know, what's the smart way to spend your time?

I think, you know, um, because I'm, I, you know, I have, I'm like a big a DD person, so I'm pretty, um, you know, pretty high energy, little bit scattered. It all seems to come together. So I really need to think about how I'm using my time and what I try to, you know, I mean, there's, there's so many little different methods and, and things I do, but I, I really try to block, I wake up really early, probably from working on the racetrack. Um, but I wake up really early and I think about my day and what, you know, what has to get, you know, it kind of falls into like little baskets or categories, like what has to get done, you know, what should be done, you know, what, you know, and then I, I spend about an hour, you know, kind of mapping out the day or the week, um, and, and kind of take it from there.

But there's, you know, there's, you know, there's also, you need time to exercise, you know, meditate, um, you know, uh, hang out with your family or your animals and all that. So that, you know, I just think it's important to make, make, you know, time for other stuff other than work too. So, you know, to try to get some of that each day to kind of feed you, you know, so that you can go out. I'm a big yoga fan, um, you know, meditation and all those things that just kind of really organize, um, you know, uh, what, you know, what's important, what's and what's not important, <laugh>,

Right? So what you're saying is, uh, two things. One is be intentional about how you're gonna spend your time. That little time you spend thinking about what you're gonna accomplish that day or that week, is very powerful. The second thing you're saying is, um, um, you know, focus on yourself because it's like, you know, you are the, you are the canvas. So if the canvas is damp and you know, is wet and messy, you can't draw a beautiful painting on it. So put that at the top of the list, you know, time for yourself, right? Mm-hmm. Whether it's exercise or meditation and so forth. And then, um, I guess, um, if you study, I mean, I think Harvard did a study where they studied people who are happy and so forth, and they followed people over a 50 year period, and they noticed the ones with great relationships are at the top of the list. And not 300 relationships, but a few quality relationships. So you're saying, um, planning time for those relationships proactively as opposed to, oh, that's the last thing on your list, and you'll get to it when you get to it, but rather making it a priority that that's something you do with your time.

Yes, definitely. And I'm, you know, unfortunately I work a lot too, and I can be quite, um, isolated, which is just probably more my personality, but having those meaningful connections, you know, and, and then at the end of the day, um, I try to review, you know, what happened and, you know, where did I, do I owe someone an apology? You know, um, do you know, do I need to improve something? You know, what, you know, you know, sometimes during the day you'll have those moments where you're um, you know, you get kind of derailed, like something, you know, something bad happens, someone really comes at you really strong and you don't know how to react. But being able to kind of step back, um, you know, and, and take a little time to be mindful and think about like, well, how am I gonna respond rather than just like, you know, I used to be like super angry and like super, um, outwardly aggressive and things like throwing phones and, um, you know, writing pretty crazy letters, things like that.

And it's, that's changed a lot for me because I realized too that, you know, that it, it, you lose your, I would lose my power when I would just, you know, kind of react all the time. So what I'm learning now and what I'm, you know, kind of even focusing on more and more is just being able to step back, you know? Um, like for example, like a is another really good example of just good, you know, principles and stuff. There's a part where they talk about, you know, when when you're agitated, you pause, like, you know, restrain a pen and tongue, you know, step back, think about like, whoa, you know, I'm derailed. Okay. You know, let me do something mindful to kind of get, get my mind back to where I need to be to kind of, you know, figure out what my next move is, as opposed to just always reacting, you know? Right. So that's what I'm working on. <laugh>

No, makes, makes total sense. Um, right. What, what's your take on relationships? Like, you know, um, what are some of the lessons you have learned with regards to relationships, let's say, with clients?

Yeah, I think, um, with clients I've learned more and more about, um, having good relationships. I've had bad relationships, I've had good relationships, and I've been in litigation, um, and had other situations where I've had to, for example, testify at trial, um, have my deposition taken and all those, what I've really learned this year is like, you know, I think sometimes like I take for granted, like, wait a minute, these people, they don't know what a deposition is. They don't know anything about the legal process. So really, um, being, um, being a better lawyer in terms of communicating what, what's going on, what the process is. I mean, I've had litigation going on where, um, for example, I would get an email from my lawyer, and I mean, the second I'd see the lawyer's name, I would start having like a panic attack. <laugh>, not quite, but, you know, because I was always like, oh my God, what's going on?

You know? And so now I've had clients tell me like, can you just call me and not send me an email? 'cause every time I see an email from you, like it completely freaks me out, you know? And they freeze, you know, people, you know, what, what's that whole thing? You either when you, you know, when you're I guess frightened or you know, um, have someone come at you or something like that, you free. What are they say? I think they say like, you freeze, you run, um, or you fight, you know? Um, as opposed to like stepping back. So I think having different experiences even in litigation and life and, and realizing that, wait, you know, most of my clients, they're, you know, the legal process is completely foreign to them. And so that I need to do a better job of communicating with them what's going on. And that's, you know, something I've been working on too, like, with that realization

Conversation. Right, right. Absolutely. Um, in terms of, uh, team members, like, about hiring, like what are some of the lessons? How do you hire good people? You know, what do you look for and how do you find it? You know?

Um, I think I'm still learning that too. And I think, um, a lot, you know, a lot of the, I'm trying to think like two of the last, or maybe two or three of the last female attorneys that have left the firm have started their own businesses. And that makes me super happy, you know? So, um, again, I mean, we don't learn how to be employers <laugh> in law school, and it's something I'm definitely still learning. 'cause I'm more of, I've learned, I'm more of kind of like a, um, you know, individualist. I'm not, I'm, I could really probably work on like team management and things like that, just 'cause I've kind of always had to do things on my own. So I just assume everybody else like, will do the same thing and they know what to do and, and all that. So it's, it's definitely something I'm learning and working on.

Right. Have you hired any coaches or any, any people along the way to help you, or pretty much you figured it out on your own?

You know, I recently, I started working, um, with this wonderful woman, um, that, that has really helped me a lot. So I've just kind of started doing that. And, you know, I, I have, I have a lot of enlightened friends too that, you know, I think good friends, they really, you know, they'll like, call you on your shit <laugh>, excuse the, the swear word. But, you know, like if there's, you know, if there's a train coming, like I want someone to like, you know, pull me out, throw me to the ground, get me away from the train, not just be like, oh, everything's okay, you know, and, and have me run over. So I, I mean, I've been blessed with just like an amazing, um, group of friends and colleagues and a lot of, a lot of, you know, contrary to what the public says about trial lawyers, there's so many like, wonderful trial lawyers that are, they're great lawyers and they're humanitarians. And I've really learned, um, from, from that, um, from those people, you know, to be a more giving person. Um, and that, you know, doing volunteer work and, and doing nice things and, and not publicizing it, you know, just trying to do good work but not like, you know, make it into like a marketing opportunity kind of thing.

Right, right. Absolutely. Um, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Is there anything you want to add, and if any attorneys, you know, want to talk to you or ask you a question, is there a way for them to kind of reach out to you? I know you are busy and, uh,

Yeah. Well, uh, yeah. Anyone can always, if they ever wanna talk about any of this, and I really enjoyed our conversation too, and I really appreciate the time on this PO podcast. My best way to reach me is email at al mackey@lisamackey.net. Um, or you can just go to my website, which is like, uh, I think it's www lisa mackey.net, and I'm happy to talk about this. And I love, you know, I love talking about, um, you know, some of the, well, it, you know, the, the books we've mentioned and, um, you know, films and things like that. I think I, I get a lot from those things too. So thank you for your time.

Absolutely. Thank you very much, Lisa. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. If you like the show, please tell your friends and also write a review for us on iTunes, uh, and, uh, hope to see you next time, and we'll include, okay.

Take care.

We'll include, um, Lisa's contact information, her website in the call notes, so you can, uh, you know, look her up if you, if you want to,

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