My journey to finding happiness in the area of law with Nicole Abboud

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is nre, your host. As you all know, this is the place where lawyers come to learn how to create a bigger life, a bigger life in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. This is nre, your host. As you all know, I also help lawyers with digital marketing, and I'm super excited to have as a guest who is a lawyer and who does kind of something I do, but but does it in a very creative and interesting way. So I thought I should have her, because you all can learn a lot from her. Her name is Nicole, Nicole Abood. Um, and Nicole is a lawyer, and, um, she's one of those people. If you meet her, she's full of life. She's always happy, always smiling, and, uh, she's a wonderful person.

So I'm super excited to have her today. And we are gonna be talking about two things, um, depending on how much time we have. The first thing is kind of her journey, you know, as, uh, a lawyer and what she did and kind of how she kind of found her own path, so to speak. And the second topic, if you get time to time, if you have time, is to talk about, you know, how can you use influence principles, right? Lawyers influence people. They influence juries. They influence, uh, the opposing, uh, side. They influence judges, they influence their clients, they spend their entire life influencing. How can you use influence principles to grow your business from a marketing standpoint. So, Nicole, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me here, and for all the kind words you just said about me, <laugh>, I appreciate it.

Thank you, Nicole. Uh, you are an amazing person and I'm super excited to be talking to you today. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? You know, kind of how you got into law and how you kind of, even though still you work with lawyers, how are you no longer a practicing law?

Sure. So how I got out, um, I will try to make a long story short, but currently I actually run a business called Abood Media, and we helped to amplify lawyer leadership through videos, podcasts, and social media. But going back to 2011, I was actually a lawyer. I started off as a lawyer and practiced for a total of five years before I decided to quit and start this current business. Um, and like I said, the long story is what happens during those five years, right, <laugh>. Uh, so to make it short, basically I started, uh, practicing law. I went into it believing I was gonna be a lawyer for the rest of my life. I, I thought I really loved it until I started practicing and realized that after a few months I was unhappy. Uh, but of course, I stuck it out to, to see where this unhappiness was coming from. And for about five years, I really went through this whole struggle of trying to figure out why I am unhappy, why, uh, I'm not enjoying being a lawyer, what else I could do if the law is not it. Uh, and it took me that long to finally figure out what else I wanted to do in this world. So <laugh>. So I, like I said, I quit. I started a business and haven't looked back since.

So can you talk a little bit more about where that happiness was coming from, because I'm assuming there are others who are listening to this and who are saying, Hey, I'm also not too happy. So I just wanted to kind of understand, uh, what was about what you're doing that kind of made you feel that way.

Yeah, and you know, this is actually a question that I asked myself many times, um, when I was just feeling really low and, um, just on the brink of depression. And, and for those who are listening who are feeling like this, I guess the first thing I wanna say is, you are not alone, because I actually have an entire podcast to prove that you're not the only one who's thinking this. So for me, uh, I, I think I just realized, um, very slowly that being a lawyer was not the right fit for me. It, it didn't really use my skills to the best of their ability. I didn't feel like I wanted to work with people or represent people in that way, in that capacity as a lawyer, as, as their lawyer. And I just could not imagine, um, feeling like I wasn't in the right profession for the rest of my life.

Like, I wasn't wearing the right pair of pants <laugh> for the rest of my life. So, so actually in 2015 when I was kind of in the midst of this self-exploration phase, I decided to reach out to other young lawyers across the US to see if they were experiencing the same thing. If they too were unhappy and felt like they made a mistake, or if they were actually happy if they found their place in the profession and what they were doing about it. And that's why, um, that's when I launched the Gen y Lawyer podcast. And like I said, that podcast is dedicated to all the lawyers out there who also went through this, um, period of trying to figure out what they're doing with their lives, how do they want the rest of their life to look like, and what, what they're doing with their jd, whether it's something in the law or outside,

You know? That's awesome. Um, so when you started talking to other lawyers about this, what were some of the common themes you were listen, hearing, like, uh, gimme some examples because I know when we talk in theory, people don't get it. Like, like yeah. Maybe your personal example. Like, I know you mentioned, uh, you felt you were wearing the wrong suit and you were like, do I want to spend the rest of my life? You know, like, I don't know, being a chef and I really hate cooking, right? So, but of course, law is a big area and some people are litigators, some people are, you know, there's all kinds of things. So for your story, what part of this you kind of, I mean, again, I'm not saying it's bad for everyone, but for you personally, what part of it kind of really didn't work for you and, and, and, and what are some of the stories you've heard from others?

Yeah, so for me, uh, to answer the part of that question, it wa I actually tried out all the different, so I tried out litigation, I did that for about three years, and then, you're right, I thought this can be it. There's, there's transactional, there are other things I could do. So I tried transactional for two years. Um, I also tried different practice areas within both of those categories. So I really made sure I got, um, a good, uh, good experience in all these different practice areas and transactional and litigation just to make sure I wasn't in the wrong area. So

What part of it you didn't like? Is it, is it like, again, is it, is it, um, uh, you know, my job is to push you, so <laugh>,

Is it? Yeah, no, no, I'm,

Is it, is it like, um, I don't know the, the office structure, you know, the way that things were structured where you didn't have independent, I don't know. I'm just asking. No,

Yeah, no, no. And, and actually, so to that end, I worked for a firm and then I worked for myself. So you're all these things that you would ask yourself to try to figure out why you were unhappy. I tried out for me, and I really wish I had a perfect answer for this. I think at the end of the day, I didn't feel fulfilled, but I also feel, I also felt like I was not being myself. I was putting on a mask every time I went into the office, every time I pretended to be a lawyer, which is not how you should feel when you, when you are a lawyer, you should feel, you should be happy, you should be proud that you are one, that you're part of this great profession. And I didn't feel that at all. Um, so, and so to go back and answer the question about what, what I heard from other lawyers, the, the ones I was interviewing and speaking to on the show, um, a lot of the common themes that I saw were really, uh, surrounding the, this idea that we all went to law school thinking one thing.

And then when we graduated and started practicing, we realized it was something completely different. So we go to law school wanting to help, wanting to give a voice to others, wanting to fight for justice, all these, all these really honorable reasons. And then when we start practicing, granted, when you're a new lawyer, it just sucks altogether. But even when you're a few years in five, 10 years in, you realize that's not always what you're doing. Um, for whatever reason, I don't know, maybe you end up in an administrative position or maybe you're not given client facing time. Whatever rea the reason is you realize that it's not exactly what you thought it was. Um, so a lot of the, the lawyers I spoke with, first of all felt very disillusioned and very, uh, disconnected from what they truly went to law school to do. And then others just, um, I guess another theme I found was they wanted to take more charge of their lives.

Uh, so maybe they were kind of on autopilot all the way through to law school, and then finally they opened their eyes and they're like, oh, wait, this is not really what we want <laugh>. Uh, so they, they pivoted, they, they made the, the decision to follow another path to, to open a business, to become teachers, to become yoga instructors, to become software engineers, <laugh>. And so these lawyers had no problem just kind of, well, I shouldn't say no problem, but they, they took time to real to think about what they wanted out of this life. And they pivoted and also didn't look back and, and they're happy and successful.

So the first group, what I'm hearing is, um, the system was so constraining or in the sense, like the way things were, and they thought, you know, they're just gonna be, you know, saving people and doing it all day long and having fun. But no, no, no, I'm doing admin work, or I'm doing paperwork, or I'm doing this and that the thing that I really get or excited about is only a tiny portion of what I end up doing. So do I want to really do this? Is that what I'm hearing? So that,

Yeah, that was a small part of it. That definitely was, I think, and I think that's probably true for a lot of other careers and professions. You, you think it's one thing. 'cause in law, in in law school, and then in school really in general, you don't get a lot of practical experience. So you, you're just learning about it in theory. And then when you actually start practicing or when you're out in the real world, real world, it's very different. So

You're saying it's, um, you learn about how to be a lawyer, but when you start being one, you realize being is totally different from, you know, is learning or, or, you know, talking about being a lawyer, it's totally different.

Yeah. So some, it's very different. And then, well, for a lot of people it's very different. And then for others, it, they just don't know what makes them happy until they actually start practicing. And that's okay too. I mean, until you do it, you don't know if it's something that you, you wanna be doing, which I realize is a crazy concept because you're spending so much money and time to go through law school and become a lawyer. But that's kind of how it goes sometimes until you start practicing, you just really don't know what it's like.

So if you're talking to a 18-year-old kid, you would first tell him to go figure out what you wanna be and then get the education you need to be that person.

<laugh>, I would tell them to get as much in real world experience as possible. So whether that entails taking a year or two off from school to actually go work somewhere in, in the area they think they wanna work in forever or whatever for a very long time, and then go to school and, and make it happen. That's really what I would say.

That's awesome advice. <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>. So the people who kind of, um, the second thing you mentioned is you just felt unhappy, right? So I assume you are happy here today than you were before. I'm not saying you are the happiest person on the planet, but first of all, are you happy right now?

I am, I am. I'm definitely, and to answer the question, yes, definitely much happier than I was when I was practicing. And, but it's still also a journey. Um, there are days when, so right now I am, uh, a business owner. <laugh>, as any business owner knows, it's, there are ups and downs. So there are days where I feel on top of the world, uh, things are going right, I'm, I'm getting new clients, that's always a good thing. And then there are other days where the phone doesn't ring or something goes wrong, and I just, it really messes with your emotions. But for the most part, I'm, I'm, it's pretty steady. I am happy and definitely much happier than when I was practicing.

Awesome. So, I know you couldn't pinpoint why you are unhappy, but can you pinpoint why you are happy? Like, what is it, and again, I'm thinking from the listeners point of view Yeah. About how you are being today that's making you happy.

Sure. So a few things really. Um, the most immediate is the autonomy over my time. So even though I'm working much longer hours than I was when I was practicing law, uh, it's, it's flexible in the sense that it, it is all my own. Um, I can, I can control when and where I do the work. So that's kind of the most immediate reason for my happiness. I think the long-term reason for me being happy is I know that I'm kind of working towards a vision, um, a vision that I have for not just myself and my business, but for the community that I'm in, for the world that I live in. I, I, I have a big vision and I know that I'm working towards it, and I know that it's mine, <laugh>, it's not, it's not working towards someone else's goals, someone else's vision. Um, so that, that brings me a lot of happiness, knowing that I, I can carve out a little space in this world through the work that I'm doing, uh, and hopefully leave some sort of legacy, some, some sort of lasting impact on people long after I'm gone. And that really does bring me happiness.

Right. You bring up an interesting point. There's a great book called Drive. I dunno if you've read it. And, uh,

Uh, I haven't, Daniel Pink wrote it, I believe. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Pink wrote it, and he talks about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Extrinsic is, you know, you pay somebody, bribe somebody, you know, hold a stick to somebody and they'll do stuff. Intrinsic is where they want to do stuff. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And he says, of course, extrinsic doesn't last forever. You know, when that stick is gone, it's gonna stop. Uh, when that carrot is gone, it's gonna stop. Right? Right. Intrinsic is very powerful. So he looked at what are the things that create intrinsic motivation? And it identified three things. One is, uh, uh, purpose. The other one is mastery, and the third one is autonomy. And autonomy is very, very, very, very powerful. As humans. We like freedom. It's just almost like in us. And, uh, when you are in a position where you have freedom, where you have control over your time, control over who you work with, control over what you do, you tend to be happier. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think you're onto something. So what you're saying is a lot of lawyers perhaps don't feel autonomy in wherever they are. Yeah. And, uh, and it's sometimes just the company, sometimes it's the industry. Sometimes it's the way the legal system works, you fill in the blanks.

Right. Right. And, you know, I don't know. Um, so I haven't read that book. Uh, I, I'm somewhat familiar with the three reasons you'd listed for the autonomy. I, I don't know if he's only talks about autonomy with time. Uh, but I think that knowing that your listeners are in private practice, uh, I don't know if autonomy, autonomy just refers to time in my mind, it also return, uh, refers to, uh, freedom in decision making as well. So if you're working at a firm or at a company where you feel like your voice isn't being heard, or your decision, or your, uh, your opinion, your, your input is a valued, I think that can really, uh, kill you on the inside slowly as well. Right. You want, you want

Absolutely. I totally agree. I, I don't think it's just about time. Yeah. I think it's about every sense of autonomy, you know? Yeah. Uh, who you work with, uh, uh, what decisions you have input over. Right. You know, do you have control of your own life? Like, you know, if, can you say, Hey, I don't feel like working today. Can I just go home? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, can you say, Hey, um, I don't like this client, you know, uh, you know, Hey, I don't like this coworker. I just don't like this guy. Can I, you know, I think autonomy means a lot to us mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it, it, and you are absolutely right. It's full dimensional. Like, you know, I guess when you are a self-employed, you have technically more autonomy than working in a firm. However, you still may not like the way the system works, you know? I don't know. Yeah. You know, you think things should happen fast and it doesn't, and it takes six years or whatever, you know? Right. Um, so that still limits autonomy because, you know, you can't, you wish you could, you know, uh, do this in two weeks and it taking so long, you know? So.

Yeah. Yeah. No, and these are all things that lawyers and firms face and, and it is causing a lot of frustration. So, and I think that's probably just a warning to the law firm managers and owners to, to realize that autonomy is an important part of, uh, what drives people. So if they want employees, associates, staff members to be driven <laugh> and motivated, uh, then they need to figure out how to work in some autonomy in there.

You know, one thing I noticed, um, is, um, is Gen y, you feel Gen y ki ask more about autonomy than maybe the, because the baby boomers? Hmm.

I don't know if they care more about it, uh, than baby boomers did, or other generations, but I think they are more vocal about it. I think they are more, um, willing to express their feelings and, and to walk out of a job, uh, that doesn't necessarily fulfill them, or there is no autonomy. Um, I think, and there are many reasons for that. I think just the way we've grown up, uh, the things that were happening in culture in society when baby boomers were growing up, as opposed to when we are, uh, I think those contribute to whether to contribute to why Gen Y are more vocal about it. But I think, I think people have always wanted freedom <laugh>. It's just that they ask for it. Did they go for it? Did they feel like they had options? Uh, if they do walk out of this job, do they have a backup? I think that's what it is.

Yeah. I think you're right. I think, um, I wanna talk a little bit about this. So for example, um, you know, um, now you can watch YouTube videos, uh, millions of them mm-hmm <affirmative>. Where people are doing all kinds of stuff and being happy and, you know, uh, you know, fulfilled. Right? Yeah. You didn't have that 30 years ago, you know? Yeah. So you didn't know that there are so many ways to, you know, have a life. So I think that could be part of it. Yes. And also, uh, perhaps, you know, um, like, um, when the baby boomers were raised, they were raised by the greatest generation, you know, they came from the war, the greatest generation, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So they were told work, work hard, um, put in your 60 years or 50 years, and then you enjoy life.

Yeah.

And they were told that from the time they were born. And they, they, they said, okay, fine. Now these kids were raised by, you know, in peace times, right? I mean, the Gen Y and so forth, there's no war, there's no survival going on. Everybody had food to eat, especially in the western world, you know, nobody was starving. So really this idea of, oh, I need to somehow work super hard so that I have food to eat. I I can have a life no longer doesn't make sense to these, you know, younger generations.

Well, so I, I disagree a little bit about this. I agree with the baby boomers a time of war that definitely makes someone, um, have that sense of urgency to, to need to work and, and, and stick to that job. For me, it's not so much that we grew up, uh, during peaceful times. 'cause we did have, uh, we did have nine 11 when we were growing up. We did have the 2008 recession that hit really hard. And, and we kind of saw the fallout from that. So I, I don't know if it's the working hard, it's more of the way that just society is changing. Um, one of them is because exactly what you said, the access to information, the access to technology changes so many things. Um, it makes those who are millennials who are starting jobs, uh, it gives them information that other young lawyers, when they were starting their jobs, didn't have. So it means that these young lawyers have, can make it to the top a little bit quicker perhaps. Or they can contribute in ways that young lawyers, uh, of past generations couldn't 'cause they didn't have access to that information. So it's more of, um, young lawyers now. It's, it's almost like they have a few more options or they're more empowered to search for a job that they enjoy. But that's not to say that making money and working hard isn't just as important as well.

I understand. I understand. I think you're making a very good point. So you think even though the lawyers who are the young lawyers have different view of the world and different expectations, do you think the firms still, uh, are not getting it? Mm. So in other words, you need to put in your 20 years or 10 years before you become a partner. And when you tell that to the YouTube generation, they're like, well, I can do it some other way.

<laugh>. Yeah. I, I think a, yeah, I think a lot of firms don't get it and haven't changed and don't look like they're gonna change anytime soon. And I think that's really gonna affect their ability to retain talent in the millennial, from the millennial generation. But, um, also just in general, I think this hierarchical structure that a lot of companies, not just law firms had, or that worked in the past where you started at the bottom took 20, 30 years to work your way to the top. And once you got to the top, you were set. I think that's changing as well. I think that hierarchy, that pyramid is getting a little bit, it's getting flattened. Um, so I don't know necessarily think that this, this ladder that that young lawyers used to want to climb, I don't know if they really wanna climb it as much. Um, so then again, that leaves lawyers, or I'm sorry, law firms, established law firms in a pickle. 'cause they're <laugh> because now they have lawyers who don't wanna climb this ladder in that way, or don't wanna wait 20, 30 years to climb it when they have the merit. Uh, maybe, maybe they have the merit now to kind of be in higher positions.

You are bringing up an excellent point. I think what's happening is, um, anything that a computer can do, computer is doing, right? I mean, today, loan applications are approved by computers. Um, you know, you wanna go from point A to point B, you know, the maps is computers and self-driving is coming. So computers are pretty much doing everything that doesn't require human creativity and human initiative. But not just law firms, but a lot of organizations still act like, oh, wisdom is so precious and it's only in the guy with 30 years of experience and all that nonsense. The young guys are saying, they're calling, you know, saying Nonsenses, you know, that's not true anymore. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. So they're not willing to just, you know, willing to pretend like they don't have creativity. They don't have imagination. They can't do it. Right.

Yeah. And I think, and I think that's why you see so many solo, um, practitioners, so many small firms that are innovating and doing amazing things. Uh, and then big law firms are still very stagnant, <laugh>. Uh, and I think that that's exactly why, because because there is so much creativity out there. There's technology, there's innovation that law firm, big law firms need to kind of pay attention to what's happening in society, um, and become a little bit more flexible with how they do things or how they, how they've done things in the past.

Right. You know, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Sure. Can you tell me, uh, five or as many as you can, law firms, big or small, that you think are being innovative and creative in the way they connect with, I love the phrase you used human beings.

Yes. <laugh>. Oh, man. Okay. So I can, yeah, let's definitely think of some. So, um, Jackson and Wilson, uh, Mitch Jackson, I know you've had him on the show before. His firm, he has a personal injury firm in Southern California, and he is actually very much driven by, uh, digital technology and social media and helping him build his practice and connect with others. Um, there's another lawyer in Atlanta, I wanna say she is, uh, her name is Kimberly Bennett. Uh, her, her law firm, Bennett Law Firm is, uh, subscription based. Um, so she offers subscription plans for clients and she's super innovative in the way she's building her practice. Another lawyer, his name is Joey Vitali, he actually, um, has, he's a trademark attorney, and he too has built a, a virtual law practice for the most part, also subscript subscription based. And he caters to creative entrepreneurs, but he's, he's very different in the way that he's marketing himself. Um, Megan Xavier another amazing lawyer in Georgia. She's a California ethics attorney. And she is actually, uh, pushing the boundaries when it comes to, um, practicing law, but also how lawyers should adopt and adapt ethics into their practice and not be afraid of it. So I, I, there are so many great lawyers out there, um, and I'm happy to give more names if your listeners wanna reach out to me, just so they can see examples of lawyers who are pushing the boundaries because they need to be pushed, um, and doing it well and succeeding.

Awesome. I love it. So if you can send us a list, if you don't mind. Yeah. We'll include that as, as part of the call notes. Like we can say here is 10 people you may wanna look into. And

I would love to,

That would be awesome. And I think I also had Joey on, on the show, so that's great. Some of these people, maybe if you know them personally, you could introduce me and I could inter interview them. <laugh>.

Yeah, <laugh>, I'd love to do that.

That would be awesome. Let's kind of switch gears. I know you said when you started the Gen Y, um, your, your podcast trying to find out why are people, you know, are people happy? And if they're not ha happy. Right. Do you know any people who kind of left? I don't wanna say they left it. I mean, you still work with lawyers even though you do marketing for them. Are there people who kind of are doing things either totally outside of law or, uh, or, or linked to law that you admire, you know, who used to be lawyers?

Yeah. So, and at this point there have been, so I don't host that podcast anymore. There's a new host, Kareem Mcg Gulick. I just produce it. And at this point we've interviewed so many lawyers, so many amazing ones. I'm trying to think if I can recall <laugh> ones that stand out. Um, I know that there, so three years ago when I started interviewing lawyers, back then, it wasn't as common to have any kind of, um, like legal templates, selling legal templates or having any kind of payment plans that are being offered. So back then, a lot of the lawyers that stuck out in my mind were the ones who weren't necessarily practicing, but they had created some kind of product, some kind of legal product that they were selling online. Um, so, and like I said, it came in the form of templates. So contracts, um, I spoke to a wedding industry lawyer and he had a lot of templates and contracts that he had prepackaged and sold those to wedding vendors, photographers, those kind of people.

Uh, and then a lot of lawyers, uh, that I spoke with had left the law altogether. And the ones that stand out are, um, uh, one lawyer who became a yoga and health instructor. Um, another one who, like I mentioned earlier, became a coder. So he's a software engineer now. So they left the law altogether. Um, God one, uh, also a lot of lawyers that I interviewed were finding a niche within the law. So if they didn't leave the law together or if they didn't have one foot in, one foot out, but they were fully immersed as lawyers, they were practicing a niche practice areas. So, like I mentioned the wedding law industry lawyer, there was a fashion lawyer that I spoke with. Um, yeah, just a lot of interesting lawyers that I would urge the listeners to go and just look through the catalog and explore these lawyers who were just doing amazing things with their JD that three years ago wasn't that common. Now it's a little bit more common <laugh>. Um, but yeah, and just goes to show that you really can do anything as a lawyer, I wholeheartedly believe it, because you've got the work ethic, you've got the smarts, you've got the knowledge, you can research, uh, anything <laugh> so you can really do anything with your, with your degree.

That's awesome. One last question. Um, sure. What did you get out of a law degree that you felt loved? You, you and all these people you talked to to have an edge?

Yeah. Well, so I dunno about the, about, I don't know if I can speak on their behalf, but I'll tell you what I think I got out of it. 'cause it's something I do think about. Um, I think the most important thing is the ability to think fairly, if that makes sense. So the ability to make the arguments from all angles, uh, for anything, which at times can hold a lot of lawyers back. 'cause then they end up <laugh>, they end up, uh, overthinking things. But for me, being able to argue both sides of anything, um, to think of all the different ways it can go right and wrong, that is the best thing that law school, the best gift that law school gave me, and as a business owner, it serves me so well every single day. Um, and then all the other things I mentioned, being able to work long hours, right? We, we get that in law school, we start doing that in law school and it just doesn't, it doesn't go away. Uh, so the org ethic, the ability to research and find answers. So if you don't know an answer, it's okay. You can find it <laugh>. Um, so all these, all these traits and and skills that I learned are definitely helping me. And for the most part, all the people I've spoken with, they have similar stories with the skills they learned have helped them in what they're doing now.

Right. I love talking to you today and I would love to have you back one of these days again because you're pretty creative and pretty inspiring and thank you. I'm sure we can, you know, talk about how to influence people, you know, as a lawyer and how to use digital media, you know, maybe in the next podcast,

I would love to, I'd love to come back. Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate it. Um, I, I had a one last question. Okay. And that is, if people wanna reach you, I, I know you help a lot of lawyers, you work, you know, you host podcasts for them, you do, um, you know, you do, um, social media for them. So if somebody wants to kind of, hey, say talk to you and say, Hey, I, I have an idea, can you help me? Or anything at all? How can they reach you, Nicole?

Yeah, so the best way to reach me is gonna be through email. So I'm gonna give you my email, it's nicole@aboodmedia.com, so N-I-C-O-L-E at A-B-B-O-U-D media.com. Uh, and then I am all over social media, but the best, uh, my favorite platform is Instagram. So you can find me on my personal Instagram. And that's at nick abood. NI see abb, OUD.

I really appreciate your time today and I also wanna thank our listeners. If you love this podcast, please share it on social media, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, you name it. Also, you can write a review for us. Uh, if you have any questions on your online presence, your reputation management, um, we also do social media as part of a whole package. If you're a lawyer, you can reach out to us at Dominate Law, um, or you can, you know, reach out to Nicole. She's a very creative person. She does unbelievable stuff. Um, I really like her. She's amazing. Thank, thank you. So feel free to reach out to her and thank you everyone for listening. And thank you, Nicole, for your time today. Have a wonderful day. Thank

You so much for everyone for tuning in, and thank you for having me.

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