Pursuing your passions and carving your own path with Joey Vitale

Welcome to Dominate Law, bringing you the best insights and experiences of successful personalities to help your law firm grow exponentially. Hosted by Naranja, CEO of Echo Marketing, you are listening to Dominate Law podcast series, a game changer podcast for lawyers.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law podcast show. This is Nare your host. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm also the founder of a marketing company that help lawyers in private practice create and dominate their online presence. Uh, so if you have any questions about marketing, please reach out to us through the Dominate Law website today. I'm super excited to have as our guest, Joey Vitali. Did I pronounce your last name correctly? Joey?

You did. Good job, Noreen. Thank you.

And, uh, the reason I wanna talk to Joey is he's not what I imagine a typical lawyer to be like or talk like or, or, or do things because he doesn't like conflict. And, uh, usually people think lawyers love conflict. So, and also he's a pretty young lawyer, so he has a different mindset, a different perspective. So I wanted to talk to him about his journey of kind of discovering what he liked, what he didn't like, and kind of carving out a career that let him pursue his passions, let him not do the things he hates, like, have conflict with people. So, Joey, welcome to the show. I'm super excited to have you, and we are gonna have a fun time together.

Thanks, Nora. I'm so excited to be chatting with you. And, and that was a, that was a great intro. I, um, I know when I first started being, um, getting this idea of the fact that I wasn't fitting the mold of an average attorney, um, it was great to hear from people in podcasts like these, um, that they were going out on a different path. And I, I, it's really, I think, important for attorneys if they're feeling like they, um, are not fitting in or wanting to go against the grain or be different in some way, to see that they're not alone. And it's a, it's a privilege and an honor to be adding to, to that kind of noise, you know?

Absolutely. This is awesome stuff. I'm super excited, uh, to be talking to you today. So for those of us who are listening to our podcast for the first time, this is a place where lawyers in private practice learn about how to create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. We want more time. Uh, we feel having more money might help our happiness. We want to do meaningful work, we call it purpose, or we want to have better relationships with our families, our clients, our team members. Because at the end of the day, we are all human beings. Doesn't matter whether we are lawyers or doctors or whatever else we are, but we are humans, and we all want to be happier tomorrow, next year than we were this year or today. So, so thank you, Joey, for coming on the show. Uh, but I think to kind of get settled and get started, um, why don't you tell your story, especially around, you know, your journey of, you know, getting into law and then kind of figuring out along the way that maybe you didn't like the traditional definition of what quote unquote a lawyer should be, and you kind of decided to ca have your own path.

Sounds great. So I, um, I, I, I'll give you as short of a version as I can. Um, I, I say that because I'm, I might start a little early than most people, but I was a junior in college and my dad and I were, were driving and he said, Joey, what do you wanna do after you graduate college? And I said, I don't know, maybe go to law school. And my dad is a very, uh, he's very traditionally minded in terms of what, uh, you can do with a profession. And I'm one of seven kids. And so when he heard lawyer, he was like, oh, that's something that like, there's a job for, so you should go to law school. And I was like, well, I'm thinking about it. And next thing I know, he took a turn and we were in the middle of a car, uh, lot, and he said, if you go to law school, I will buy you a car right now.

And so I was like, okay. And so I decided to go to law school because my dad bribed me with a car. Um, and I think that, that, that story really captures not only exactly why, why I went to law school, but also this sense of, um, my decision to go to law school and what I was gonna do with a law degree in a lot of ways was shaped by what other people were telling me I should be doing. And I quickly learned, uh, once I started practicing that my, I I just didn't feel like it was a very good fit, um, that I wasn't really thinking about what I like. Going back to what you said Nora, about, um, you know, your sense of mission and purpose and happiness in life. I felt like I was kind of doing what other people were wanting me to do, but it didn't feel like it was a great fit for me.

And, um, like you said, I'm not a huge fan of conflict. I'm the middle of seven kids. I've always been more of a, a peacemaker and eventually working at a litigation firm just got to a place where I was, I was really unhappy at work, and the, the money was, was pretty good for a starting attorney. And, um, I was, I was wrestling with, with that struggle of, you know, I'm working and I feel not only like, I'm not particularly good at it, um, because I, I had grown up in, in school and, and otherwise, you know, um, if I put my mind to something, I I wanna be doing a good job and being good at it, but I just felt like it wasn't a good fit. And so I decided to leave that law firm, moved to a different city with my wife, um, moved from the litigation side of being a lawyer to the transactional side of working with small businesses, eventually landed on this niche of working with creative small businesses.

And it is been a fascinating journey ever since then, because what I've learned were, um, kind of seen as, as weaknesses in the, in the courtroom and in that professional setting. And Noreen, just as a easy example, uh, a couple, I think maybe six months after I was at the firm, one of the partners that I was getting closer with kind of pulled me aside and said, Joey, are you sure you still wanna be going by Joey? Because that's not really, you know, a name that people will respect as much as maybe Joe in the courtroom. And I've always been a Joey and my Joey Joyness, I think has been something that in a very prof like literal pro professional setting, um, can be seen as more of a weakness as more immature. But in this, in the business that I've built, um, there is a sense of approachability and warmth and peace of mind that has become a really, uh, unique unfair advantage that our law firm has that similar law firms don't in this space.

And so, because of kind of turning those character traits on its head and relying on them as, as values and strengths instead of things that I was trying to work through, I quickly built a, uh, a Facebook group of, uh, my type of creative clients and followers to over 7,000 members. Um, we got to a six figure law firm in our first year, and it's, it's just crazy what a, a mindset shift can do. And I've, I've learned that no matter what you are, uh, how you feel like you are as a lawyer, um, if you feel like you are struggling to become kind of what your, the people around you are expecting, you might just kind of be in the wrong room. You know,

Right now I wanted to kind of, I feel like jumping up and down and saying yes every time you say one of these things because, uh, I totally agree with you in the sense, um, you know, you don't have to live somebody else's life. Uh, you can live your own life. And I remember that Steve Jobs speech, and he said, most of us, you know, wake up, uh, wake, you know, wake up or just realize that near out that bed, we ended up living someone else's life, not our own life. So, um, and that's not just true for you, you know, who decided to go to law school because your dad bribed you with it. But that's true for most people. You know, we are told what to do, we are told, you know, take this path and then we follow people in our firm and we try to be like them, and we live in somebody else's shoes. So kudos to you to kind of waking up and saying, I'm miserable and doesn't matter how hard I try, if I'm miserable, I can't be the best at what I do. So let me acknowledge, you know, like, uh, I think there was a famous quote from, uh, what's the name? Um, a famous, uh, the African American lady, um, a creative person, uh, Angelo Mari, what's her name? Uh,

Oh, Maya Angelou.

Maya Angelou. She said something along the lines of, you can't change something till you acknowledge it, or something like that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, so you have to first acknowledge something, you have to first, you know, say yes to something. So you acknowledge the fact that you're miserable and you acknowledge that there's no way you can be successful when you are not happy. And, uh, I think that was this turning moment and you said, okay, fine, enough is enough. I'm gonna be the person I wanna be, not what my dad wants to be, or not what somebody else wants to be, or whatever else it is. Right. So,

So, absolutely. But there's another side to that coin. So I, when I told my wife what I was hoping to do, she was incredibly supportive and she knew that I was struggling, but she said, Joey, I want you to do this, and I know you're gonna make it happen, but you have three months to build the business that is generating revenue. <laugh>,

<laugh>. And I, I think that there's, looking back that was, you know, incredibly helpful. And I think that it's, I think a lot is being said right now of kind of following your passion and, um, figuring out what you want to do. And what I really enjoy counseling my clients with and counseling my entrepreneurial friends with is, you know, you, you might have a passion that harmonizes itself with, you know, monetizing it and turning it into a business. You might have a passion that is comfortably a hobby. And what I want to help people avoid is spending too much time trying to, uh, trying to make something work that is not going to work. And so as much as I think people should be chasing after entrepreneurial pursuits and, um, where they can creating a business that they love, there has to be a market for it.

Right, right. Absolutely. And I think that's the journey that I think a lot of the listeners are interested in is how did you figure out how to connect the dots? How to, you know, fill in the jigsaw puzzle and build the business you wanted to build. Um, like for example, you talked about the Facebook group. I bet that's a huge part of your puzzle. You talked about, you know, um, understanding the psychology. I mean, maybe you didn't explicitly talk about it since we started recording, but you kind of alluded to it when we talked, understanding the psychology of the quote unquote creatives, who are your clients, um, and know, you talked about there are two types of creatives, the wannabes and the people who are somewhat successful, and your choice to focus on the ones who are somewhat successful, not the wannabes.

Yeah. I, I tell,

So a lot of lessons you learned along the way, and I would love to kind of weave through and understand what are those lessons, how did you learn it? Because I'm sure, you know, the way I look at building a successful business is like climbing a bunch of stairs, knowing what this first step is. The second step is, and the third step is, and just keep climbing. So go ahead.

I love that. I, um, I, and I wish that I can tell you that I did all of this intentionally looking back in hindsight, but, um, there, there was definitely a, a a lot of learning that went into it, and I pivoted as I went, but I, uh, I, I started out, you know, I think as any business, even though you say that you wanna value yourself and your worth, if someone says they're interested in buying from you, and you currently don't have many clients, you take what you can get. And so I very quickly started realizing that, um, there are a lot of people who wanna work with an attorney, and not all of them will pay you what you're worth or wanna pay you what you're worth or at a place in their business where they really need to be paying you. And so we very quickly adopted this phrase, especially within our group as it started growing of your business isn't really worth protecting until it's successful.

Right.

And we said that to give hopefully a lot of peace of mind to a lot of these entrepreneurs who are in their very nature, very worried and risk averse and saying, yes, it's important to eventually lock down things like a trademark registration, copyright registrations, a solid contract that is attorney approved. But if you are barely making $10,000 for the year, you're, the chances of you running into any legal risks right now are pretty low. And so you should take that time and attention, um, and mental energy and, and first let's focus on you getting the, these sales up, um, getting a team around you, getting operations in place. And so I've, I've done a lot of connecting. Uh, it sounds a little weird, but people will call me, um, saying, Hey, I don't know if I need an attorney right now, but so and so recommended you'd be a great person to talk to. I really need a website done. Who do you recommend? And because of my creative space, I have website designers, graphic designers, marketing specialists that may or may not be clients of the firm, but I've worked closely with them and can make good recommendations.

Right. So you made a couple of very interesting points. I mean, at the end of the day, nobody will pay you what you think you're worth. They will pay, pay you what, what benefit, what value you add to them, right? So this idea of I'm $200 an hour, I'm $300 an hour, it's all nonsense. You could be worth $10,000 or you could be worth $5. It all comes down to what benefit you can deliver somebody.

Yeah. And so when we, when we started, um, we actually built our law firm initially completely on the backs of a year long subscription model. And I worked with a couple of coaches to put this together, but the idea was we wanted there to be a floor of recurring revenue with the firm so that each month, you know, something was going in and that something was growing each month. And we were trying to figure out, okay, what features would we include in a package like that? How much would it cost? And what we ended up doing was we got to know our target market really well, where their business was, and we said, you know what? A business that is within our target market is usually making about this much money, which means that they can probably budget for about X amount. And so we had a number of what we wanted our package to be, and as much as I would've loved to make that a red carpet service, I said, you know what, if I'm only charging them this much per month, then here are services that make sense that fit that. And so they, they knew that they weren't getting red carpet legal services for this amount, but they were getting their first taste of an attorney that was in their back pocket for a year. That was easy for us to provide.

That's awesome. So tell us about, because I think if we give people examples and details, it'll make sense to them to tell us about your target market for that product and, uh, uh, how much, uh, were they making on average and how much were you charging and what kind of services did you bundle into that?

Sure. So we, and, and they've, they've changed over time, but when we first started, uh, the idea was you could get unlimited quick questions for 12 months. Uh, and as long as we could answer them for you without having to do additional research, um, we that would be included. And you would, it would, you would agree to a full 12 months with us. So you couldn't cancel mid plan. It wasn't really a subscription in that way, but as soon as you paid us, you would get those unlimited quick questions and you would get between three and 12 hours of work from us that we would determine, um, most of what, what those hours would be at the very beginning. And so we would do a lot of the work for you upfront, and we'd be more of a payment plan. And so we did a lot of LLC formations, a lot of terms of use writing, a lot of privacy policies, a lot of, uh, client contracts, um, through those clients.

But we were going after businesses that were validating. And, and this is something that I think it law firm lawyers don't really appreciate, and I think a lot of business owners don't appreciate. There's, there's a huge difference between a business that's not making any money and a business that's making something. And then there's obviously a big difference between businesses that are making 20 K for the year versus 40 K versus a hundred k. And so we built these year long plans for businesses that were making anywhere between 40 K and sales for the year to a hundred K for the year. And they would come to us with their problems and what they, they kind of saw as their, uh, their biggest obstacles, what they really wanted to get done, what was keeping them up at night the most, and saying, we'll get that done under this plan. Um, and then you can upgrade mid plan if you'd like. And so we are almost at two years old with the firm, and we've restructured that plan a little bit over time. Um, now that we've gotten kind of more footing in the space, we're, um, we're starting to change things, raise our prices a little bit more, add more services to it. So

Tell me, what does it look like right now? What are the different packages you have and how much does it cost?

So right now, there are, and this is, this is again, just one arm of what we sell at this point, uh, but again, when we started, it was the main thing that we were targeting people towards. Um, it ranges from 150 a month to 300 a month, which you can pay upfront or over 12 months, and you get the three to 12, um, hours of work, you get unlimited quick questions and access to a secure client portal. Um, and you get quarterly check-in calls with the firm.

Right. And I guess a lot of the questions you answer for one client you can share with somebody else.

Exactly. So at this point, we have a lot of people on our, uh, our team who, when somebody asks a question, they will look through our bank of at questions that are asked and already answered. And, um,

So what, what percentage of your business is this subscription revenue and what else do you do right now?

So the subscription is, um, it's gone from a hundred percent to about 50%, um, because we're now, uh, we're now charging for our initial consultation calls. We, um, after working with creatives for two years, we've learned and kind of been surprised that the, the biggest risk that a creative business will, is most likely to face when they're starting, is some type of a trademark dispute. And so we've learned that it's really important for them, and they usually don't think about it to be locking in their business names, their logos, their slogans as protected registered trademarks as quickly as possible. And so we've, um, we're now making those, uh, completely separate flat fee package that we are, um, we're doing outside of those plans that we're getting a lot of clients signing up for.

Makes, makes ton of sense. So pretty much the, the subscription is like the base, and then pretty much they can upsell or get the specific things they need for their specific needs. So more advanced stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's that, and then there are, um, we, we, we try and flat, I, I, I loved your point about, you know, the <laugh> the whole hourly built billing system, I think is, is going by the wayside, and it's more about kind of the value that they get. I will say that, um, there, especially when it comes to legal stuff, but across the board, um, you get what you pay for mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I think that some people are, are looking at pricing from a customer standpoint of, you know, whatever cheap is cheapest, I'm gonna go ahead and get, but my, a lot of my clients are coming to us after working with a, um, a friend of the family who didn't really specialize in something or an online legal solution that was less of a law firm and more of just a, a a, a form filling filler outer mm-hmm <affirmative>.

And, um, that's true for, for law firms, but that's also true for businesses. Like there are, um, I, I have, I know of a lot of graphic designers and small business coaches and things like that, but there are only a few that I can recommend because it's one thing to be good at what you do, but it's another thing to, to run a business around it and make sure that you're, you know, communicating with your clients well, and you're making them feel taken care of, and you're not missing deadlines. And so it's, it's tough to run any type of business. And I think that, uh, even as businesses grow, they realize, you know, if I can work with somebody for $5 to help me with a, you know, something with marketing or hundreds of dollars, there must be something there to that price difference.

Exactly. I mean, um, like we have a team of 180 people, and our clients pay approximately a thousand dollars plus a month, and 90, 95% of them keep paying that for the rest of their lives. You know, every year they keep renewing and they can walk away anytime, and they don't. And the reason is because we have built 18 products that solve different parts of the marketing puzzle, and then we put all of those together to continue to grow their business. We focus on how many calls are being generated and what the results are. So as long as the business is growing and they're getting better and better results, you know, most people are pretty, you know, smart, so they, they don't stop doing the things that's working for them. Um, oh,

I love that. I love that. So, coming, no, go ahead. Yeah,

Coming back to something I, you said, and maybe you didn't realize it, maybe you did, there's an awesome book called, uh, influence by Dr. Robert Choy. He's a psychologist and he talks about six influence principles that make a huge difference in getting people to say yes. And of course, marketing is about getting people to say yes. So I'm a big fan of Dr. Robert Choy, uh, and, uh, one of the things he talks about, one of the principles is called liking. We tend to do business with those we like. And, uh, whether you liked it or not, you became very likable to the creative community. Even that Joey name, that playfulness kind of makes sense to a creative person. Uh, you became the opposite of a lawyer. So your weakness, which is that you don't like conflict, became your strength. Um, and you realized it, you acknowledged it, and you, you, uh, you know, started leveraging it.

So for example, uh, you know, you're very much into education, so even your product's all about, Hey, you have a concern, you have a question, I'll help you, I'll answer the question so you have peace of mind. Um, and I bet you are doing lots of stuff on podcasts, and you build the Facebook group, what do you do in Facebook groups? You help people. We like those who help us, but instead of helping them one by one, you're helping 6,000 people at a time in a Facebook group. So you figure out a way to scale being helpful. You know, like this podcast, for example, is, you know, listened to by thousands of people. So again, we figured out how to help people without helping them one-on-one. So, so I don't know, I think you tapped into that liking, you know, how do you get your potential clients to, like you and, and you became not this big button law firm, you became a friend, somebody they can relate to, somebody who who, who is, um, you know, friendly Joey as opposed to Joe. Now, all those tiny, tiny things made a difference. Was that conscious or he just, you accidentally stumbled upon it and he just kept doing it because it worked for you?

It was definitely something that was intentional.

It was or wasn't.

It was, I, um, or at least I should say, I, um, I, I wasn't like super confident going out the gates, but I am a, uh, it's hard. I don't have a poker face. I can't really pretend to be anybody who I'm not. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I very quickly, uh, started embracing live video on Facebook. Um, and live video was amazing. I didn't do it because I love live video. I did it because I'm a bit of a, uh, perfectionist and I knew that if I put stuff out there and I allowed myself time to record or do takes or things that I, I just wouldn't get as much stuff out there. And so pretty much all of the content that I put out is direct, is initially in the form of a, of a live video, which might get repurposed down into, you know, a podcast episode or a blog post or something.

But it, it really, especially in the beginning, kept my feet to the fire and kept me moving. And it, it, I didn't realize it at the time, but after a couple of the videos, the, the, a lot of the engagement was coming from, you know, people who were really liking this side of an attorney that they had never seen before. And so, I, I just, you know, I didn't, I don't wanna say I leaned into it, um, but I, I, I realized that I was doing something that people were liking, and so I just kept doing it. I didn't feel like I was changing it, um, very much, but I, uh, it, uh, it was, it was really reassuring in a weird way to spend so long feeling like these things were things that were working against me that I was trying to get over, and then finding myself in a virtual room of sorts where, um, there was a value associated with it.

That's awesome. That's awesome. Um, the other thing you did right, uh, which was interesting is, um, um, so tell me about where does your co, is it just you or is it a team of people? Are you the only lawyer?

So I'm the only lawyer right now. Um, there are about seven contractors on our team, and we, uh, again, we went from like literally zero. I had no clients. I didn't really know anybody in the, in the space when I first started. Um, and we, we've grown very, very rapidly. Um, and at the same time, we're trying to keep things manageable. And so, um, we will probably be adding an attorney and, and some more teams and, and having employees sometime in year three. But right now we're, we're making sure that we are growing in a way that is manageable. Uh, I've learned the hard way that as great as it can be sometimes to have a, a huge sales month, if you're not ready to, uh, to deliver on that high of a sales month, then it can create a lot of chaos the next month. And so we we're big fans of, of documenting what we're doing and having systems and processes in place for everything. And that's, that's one of the, the reasons why I love this proactive area of the law is because I can, um, really think through and give a lot of attention to a process that I can repeat over and over again. And, you know, every subsequent client is, is really benefiting from me standing on the shoulders of every last time that I've done it and refining it.

Right, right. This is awesome stuff. Um, what do these contractors do? So if people are wondering what other things that you consider to be key to your success?

Well, we've gotten to a point now, when I started, it was, you know, the fact that I, I had to start delegating something. So if you are at a place where, um, you are thinking about making a first hire, uh, or you're a solo lawyer, solo professional, I found somebody online. Um, and I started with just giving him five hours a month of administrative work to do. And these were things that, you know, for instance, when a client signs up, I need the, the file set up and the onboarding done. That was the first thing that I had had set, you know, set up for them. And then I, I was really sensitive about this because I was working with an, uh, some lawyers before who would assign me work. And because the instructions were never clear, I always felt like I wasn't delivering as well as I could.

And so, as the business owner, I've always tried as much as I can to be as clear in my instructions so that it's as easy as possible for my contractors to succeed. And so over time, what I was delegating was higher and higher order of concerns. We're now at a place where we, I, I think about the business and the team, less about how many people there are and more about what roles are being filled. So we, we have me who's more of the, the high level visionary who, and I I should add, when you ask kind of about what revenue streams are coming in, uh, I'm doing a lot of speaking these days, and that's a really important, um, revenue stream to the firm right now. We also have a, a team leader, uh, who is kind of executing on what I'm envisioning is keeping me focused on, you know, the big rocks that we've set for the quarter and communicating to the rest of the team. And then underneath her are, um, a, a marketing manager and operations manager, and like an admin and HR manager.

Right, right. Talk about your speaking. Do you actually get paid for your speaking? What kind of speaking do you do?

Yeah, so I, um, I actually have been, um, giving talks since I was in high school. And by the time that I was a senior in high school, I was giving about 10, 12 talks a a year through, uh, like religious retreats that I had grown up in. And so I had gotten more comfortable being on the stage and then in college, uh, got into improv. So this idea of performing and telling a story and kind of captivating a group has been something that I really enjoyed. And that was one of the surprises to me when I started my business was that I could kind of lean on that again. And so that's been really fun. Um, I invested in working with a, a speaking coach, but a speaking coach who is familiar with my niche. And so not only was she helping me put the finishing touches on my presentations, but she was also connecting me with conferences that were made for creative professionals.

Right, right. That's awesome. So you're very strategic, you're always thinking about, um, you know, not just working hard, but working smart.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, um, I'm very blessed to have the parents that I did, and my dad, uh, was just a, an amazing model of what can happen if you're an extremely hard worker. And I, there were parts of growing up in that environment that I didn't appreciate as much as I probably should have. Um, you know, there were, my dad tried to make it to as much as he could, but when you're growing up in that space, you, you very quickly learn yourself that, you know, money isn't everything, and I really like that you, uh, compartmentalize money when you talk about happiness. Um, but at the same time, there, there is something fulfilling about work and purpose and working towards that. And so, um, I am just really grateful for the journey that I've been on and what I've been learning. And I, in addition to being a lawyer, I'm really obsessed with helping other businesses that are struggling, that are, are, you know, not getting the momentum that they want in their business and helping them.

I'm by no means a business coach, but I've learned a lot. And because of my background and because of what I do as a lawyer, as a speaker, as a business owner, I, I love trying to simplify things and explain things in a way that might click for you in a, in ways that they haven't before. And so whatever I can do to help business owners, whether that's make them feel more protected and, and at ease, or, you know, make them focus on taking action on certain things that will help them at certain stages of their business, um, at the end of the day, it's, it's all about that relationship for me and, and leaving people better than I found them.

That's awesome. I had a fun time today, Joey. Um, can you gimme any final thoughts before we wrap up? Also, what are some of the, I know you have a lot of, you have been featured on podcasts, you have a amazing website, you have lots of stuff going for you. What are some of the things that you want people to follow or use to get in touch with you?

Well, thanks, Noreen. Yeah. If you, you can find me@indielaw.com. Um, I do a weekly live Facebook show, um, for, for business owners. It's every Thursday at 2:00 PM Central called the Indie Show, and we broadcast that on indie law Live. Um, and, and then I also do a weekly live show with, uh, a great attorney, Mitch Jackson called The Legal Hour Live, where, uh, Mitch is a business litigation social media attorney. Uh, and I'm more of an IP creative attorney. And so each week we tackle a trending news or business topic, and we, uh, kind of break it down for non-lawyers so that they can understand kind of the legal component to whatever that news topic is.

Yeah. Actually, Mitch has been on my podcast.

Mitch is amazing. Yeah.

He's, he is a pretty interesting guy. He is very smart. Um, so yeah, that's awesome stuff. So we'll include all of that information, and I'm sure people will follow you. And, uh, yeah, I wanna talk to you about, uh, how can we help lawyers who want to take the journey you took, you know, kind of cover their own niche. But anyways, we'll talk about that offline. Uh, so I mean, you're a very creative guy and I'm so happy to see you and, uh, I see you create the future that you wanted based on your passion, based on your purpose, and, uh, and also you're focusing on relationships, you know, helping people and being of service to others. Those are, you know, some of the things that always bring us happiness, right? I mean, money, that new car will make you happy for two days, but third day it becomes a old car. But when you make a difference for somebody else and you made their life better, that makes you feel good, so,

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I mean, Noreen, this has been such a, a, a great conversation and I really do feel honored to, to be on this podcast. So thank you so much for your time.

Yes, thank you very much, joy. Same, I, I feel the same way here. And I want to thank our listeners, uh, who are listening to us. Please share it on social media. Uh, please, uh, you know, write a review for us on Dominate Law, uh, the iTunes, uh, or any other platform you're using to listen to our podcast. You know, please go to the website, dominate law and get in touch with us. Listen to other podcasts or get in touch with Joey will include all of his information so you can get to know him. And he's a pretty amazing guy. He only graduated in 2 20 14, but, uh, he has the success that perhaps people have been practicing for sometimes 20 years, don't have. So you can learn a few things from him. So follow him and, uh, just, uh, learn and grow. Have a wonderful day, everyone, and thanks a lot, Joey, for taking the time to talk to us today.

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