The Business side of a Law Firm with Larry Organ

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is nra, your host. Today I'm super excited to have Larry Ogen, the founder of California Civil Rights Law Group. Larry, welcome.

Thank you, Naraine. It's a pleasure to be here.

Um, I just wanted to jump in by, you know, letting our listeners get to know you. I'm sure the people in California probably have heard your name, but we have an audience that, you know, that's across the US and even global. So, um, why don't we start by having you talk about your story and what got you into law, and, um, where have you come from and where are you today?

Sure. Well, I, um, I was actually born in California, but moved around a lot as a kid and ended up going to high school in Birmingham, Alabama, just after the major portion of the Civil Rights movement, uh, in the late sixties and seventies. So, um, when I went to high school, there was a busload of black kids that would come in every morning and then go home every evening. And, um, when I was at Berkeley, uh, doing my undergraduate education, I, I looked back on that and kind of felt a little guilty that I hadn't done more to, um, to make those African American students feel more welcome in, in what must have been, um, a, a foreign land in, in terms of their experience. So, um, at, at that point, I, I dedicated myself to, uh, concepts of social justice and civil rights, and, um, eventually went to law school at Duke University in North Carolina and, uh, became a lawyer and started practicing, uh, civil rights law fairly, uh, soon after I finished law school and have been doing it now for over 20 years. Uh, my focus has been primarily on sexual harassment cases and on race discrimination cases.

Right. Did you just fall into civil rights, or is that, uh, experience you had back in Alabama influence you deciding to get into civil rights?

I, I think it did. It was a formative experience and I, I think it, it, uh, sort of helped propel me to, uh, this idea that we all have an obligation to make the world a little better place and, uh, to follow Dr. King's dream, um, uh, of equality. So, um, I, I, you know, I, I guess I fell into it a little bit because I was exposed to this, but by the same token, um, it, it helped change me so that I, uh, formed a plan that I was gonna do something important in this area.

Right. So you currently live and practice in Southern California, I mean, sorry, in northern California, San Francisco area.

That's correct. But I, but my, my practice is all over the state. We have, um, the California Civil Rights Law Group has, um, cases from, uh, southern California, Northern California, and, and other areas of the state. So we're all over.

Right. It's kind of interesting because you are in the tech capital of the world, right? You are in the Bay Area. Yes. So do you see this kind of challenges even in, in the Bay Area? You would think the Bay Area is, you know, more progressive and, you know, like, especially the sexual harassment cases and, you know, um, you know, you talked about discrimination cases.

Yeah, well, you would think that, you know, you've got a, a highly educated population and, uh, people who pride themselves on inclusiveness and diversity. And yet, uh, you know, we've all seen the, um, problems that have, uh, ensued in, in high tech in terms of barriers to female, um, uh, rising among the ranks, and, uh, then the blatant sexual harassment, uh, that's occurring at, at Uber and some of the other, um, startups. So that's there. And then in terms of race issues, right now we've got, uh, one of the highest profile race harassment class actions in the country against, uh, Tesla motors in their Fremont plant, where, where workers are being called the N word, um, all the time. So it's, uh, it's a little sad that, uh, in this alleged bastion of, um, progressive values, there is, uh, certainly some backward thinking.

Yeah. That's, that's, that's, and, and, uh, yeah, you would think that, you know, based on all the pr you read, you know, it's one of the most progressive places, you know, in the world. But, uh, I guess humans sometimes do the wrong thing, and you, you need somebody to do defend people who are kind of the weakest people in that situation.

Right. And, you know, I, there are all kinds of studies out now about implicit bias and how, you know, we all have, uh, certain biases, um, that we may not be born with, but we certainly develop, uh, based on our cultural heritage. And, uh, so, you know, everybody is prejudice in some way. The, the question is whether or not you, you act on that prejudice or whether you try and, uh, um, achieve a better self and, uh, uh, overcome any kind of bias you might have.

Right, right. Um, I mean, I don't want to get philosophical on this, but I mean, this issue of, you know, especially in tech, there aren't too many women in leadership positions, and when you read that, uh, memo from the lady who worked at Uber, it's pretty, you know, mind boggling. You know, it's just, uh, crazy. Uh, you can't even believe it's happening in 2018 or 2017, um, right. What do you think causes that? It's just like we all creatures of habit and this is the way things are. I don't know. I'm just curious, like, because I'm sure you have thought about this for a long time.

So I, you know, sex harassment really is, is primarily about power relationships. This is why Harvey Weinstein was able to harass women for decades because he had power. He, he, you know, it's not like he's an attractive guy. And, um, so, um, he, he was able to use his power to, uh, seduce women or, or not seduce them, but, you know, um, um, uh, get them in compromising situations and then take advantage of that, um, promising them certain things if they would, um, give, uh, something to him, uh, in a sexual nature. So that's, that's a fairly typical thing when, um, in, in the uber situation, again, it's higher level executives taking advantage of lower level executives in the, the biggest case I ever had, um, it was against, uh, Ralph's grocery company. We, we had a $30 million verdict there, and in that case, we represented six grocery clerks, and it was the store manager taking advantage of his position and their need for that job, uh, for, you know, he, he then engaged in abusive conduct. So it, it, it, it runs across all gamuts of business and, uh, it is sort of an unfortunate circumstance in the workplace today.

Right, right. Um, I know you have been doing this. How, when did you start practicing Larry?

Uh, I, uh, graduated from law school in 1994 and, uh, went to work for the government, uh, as a, as an honors attorney for two years, and then, uh, left government service to go into private civil rights work on behalf of, uh, employees and, and other victims of civil rights abuses.

Right. So tell me a little bit about your journey, building your practice. Um, did you like, um, work for somebody else in the beginning? Like, uh, help us understand, because you, they don't teach you how to build a business, how to, you know, market yourself, you know, how to get clients, how to, you know, all of that business stuff. Right. So just help us walk, learn about your journey, please.

Sure. So I started out, uh, working for, um, about a, a 10 lawyer firm in San Francisco, which I know sounds small, but in civil rights circles, it's actually fairly big, um, because most of the plaintiff's side civil rights firms are only made up of one or two, um, lawyers. Um, so I started out in that, uh, in that firm, and I joined various, uh, organizations that, uh, were, uh, for civil rights lawyers. So there's a, there's an organization for plaintiff's civil rights lawyers called the California Employment Lawyers Association. So I started networking through that, and, uh, then it turned out that I met a guy who was probably the, the top trial lawyer, civil rights trial lawyer in California at the time, who really broke open sexual harassment cases. And he invited me to come and work from him and learn from him. And, uh, he turned out to be my mentor.

So I worked with him for about eight and a half years, and we eventually, uh, started, uh, partnering cases together and then got to a point where I just decided I needed to go out on my own. So I started my own firm, and, um, then I, initially I started out, you know, law Offices of Lawrence, Oregon, and then I realized it, it's important to try and create something that others can invest in. And so that's when I decided to create, uh, uh, a new firm name called the California Civil Rights Law Group. And that was so that I could give something to those employees, give them an incentive to, to, uh, you know, want to aspire to owning part of the firm and to advancing their careers in that way.

Right. So when did you, um, start your first business and when did you start California Civil Rights Law Group?

So I started my first business in 2000. Um, and, uh, but, but I was still working with my mentor at that time. Okay. So it was sort of an easier transition that way. And that's something that I would advise other lawyers to do is, you know, you want to try and, uh, develop mentor relationships, uh, because, um, law is perceived by people outside the law, maybe as, as more of an intellectual exercise. And, you know, it requires a lot of education in, in reality, it's, it's more of a, um, a skill, particularly when it comes to trial work, which is what I specialize in. And so you, you have to develop the skills, and the only way you really know how to get those is you don't get 'em in law school. You gotta learn them from other lawyers. And so developing those skills, getting that experience is extremely important. And developing relationships with people who have skills is also another important thing. And I, I, I saw that early on, uh, and started doing that even when I was working for the government.

Right. So you would strongly recommend having mentors because they have that before you, not just on the, on the legal side, but also on the business side. Am I hearing that correct.

Okay. Yeah, I think that that's true. You know, most lawyers are terrible business people. And, um, I I, I have to plead guilty when it comes to that. You know, I don't, I I think really in terms more in terms of, of generating more revenue is the answer to all my problems. But, but the reality is that, um, there are all kinds of issues that you have to deal with in a law business, one of which is, uh, creating an atmosphere for your employees where they wanna work there and they want to contribute to your business. If you can get good employees and keep them, um, you have, you know, less, less overhead, and you just, it, it's just a much better situation.

Right. I know you said, uh, most lawyers are terrible business people. Um, you know, of course hindsight is 2021. What are some of the, uh, reasons why you think that might be the case? So hopefully people, people can self-reflect and hopefully, you know, um, compensate for some of those challenges.

Um, so I, uh, you know, it's interesting 'cause I, I think I probably have done this through trial and error. You know, I, I, I basically have not invested as much. Originally, I wasn't investing as much time in training people. And, and so I found that if I invested a little bit of time and effort in training them, they want, they became better employees and they wanted to stay. And also creating a, a system where they feel like in your company or in your firm, uh, makes a huge difference too.

Right. So the first point is, um, um, you, you're talking about, you know, uh, giving people a purpose, which is not about, yeah, do what's good for Larry, but do what's good for the client, do what's good for us as a company and, and as a team and everybody wins.

Exactly.

And early on, you didn't realize that. And as you matured and as you started thinking, uh, you realized that just like you need a purpose, they need a purpose, and it can't be about do what's good for my boss. It has to be about what's good for all of us.

Exactly.

And, um, and you also mentioned, um, uh, you know, training and systems. Uh, now let me ask you this, and you said most lawyers are terrible business people. And, uh, uh, you know, I don't want to keep repeating it, but the point that I want to kind of get to is, why do you think that's the case? Is it because lawyers are supposed to know everything so they think they also know business, so they kind of assume things about how business should be? Or, I, I don't know, I don't wanna put words in your mouth. I just wanna get your thoughts on why you feel that most lawyers are terrible business people.

I, I think most lawyers are terrible business people, in part because they think they know everything, as you said. And, and, you know, they take courses on corporations and business law, but, uh, that doesn't train you for what's good in law, you know, in, in terms of a law of business, right. That treat that teaches you what the law is that affects businesses. But, you know, uh, business is really about motivating employees and, and keeping good workers and, and having a purpose for your company or your law firm. And so, you know, our, our law firm is dedicated to advancing causes, um, and helping people who have been the victims of harassment and discrimination and, and keeping that at the forefront of people's thinking gets them motivated. And so, and once you motivate talented people, um, that's a powerful thing.

Right, right. Um, so let's look at your journey. And actually, I, I had a question for you. Would you, being, knowing what you know today, would you rather work for somebody else, or would you go on your own?

No, I would definitely go out on my own. Again, I, I think working for, um, working for, uh, someone else is, is no way to be, uh, in, at least in terms of a big company, I, I think it's much better to be smaller and, um, more focused on, on a, a particular goal. I think the bigger you get, the harder it is to maintain that drive and that focus.

Right. So why do you enjoy it? Why do you enjoy going, why, why do, why do you think being on your own or working in a small team is better than, like, what, what, what, what, can you share some insights?

Sure. I, I think that fir first of all, you, you don't, you don't have to compromise. Um, you know, we, we see civil rights as a, as a cause and because we are focused on that, um, we, we are able to pursue that. And so I, I think that that moti, that motivation stays intact. I think the other thing is that it keeps, keeps you nimble. So the bigger you get, um, the harder it is to, um, not have to put in place systems and things like that to control a large bureaucracy. Um, now the, the, the flip side of that is you have to get to a level where you can do numerous things simultaneously, otherwise, your cash flow, uh, is not sufficient to maintain an office. And so that's the really difficult balancing act that you have to do.

Right. So, um, on the nimble side, what are some of the advantages of being nimble? Can you give us some practical examples of where somebody like you who's nimble can do things that a a big team or a big environment you cannot?

Well, let's say some, for example, um, last year, uh, um, a colleague of mine, um, who has another small firm had a trial coming up in a week and, uh, uh, said to me, can you help me with this trial? And I said, sure. But, um, if I, if I, you know, was in a much more, uh, structured, uh, culture, um, I wouldn't have been able to move around my calendar as easily. And fortunately, I had, uh, associate attorneys in my firm who could take over some of the tasks that I had scheduled. And as a result of that, I was able to, uh, help this guy with the trial. First time he'd ever really done a trial like that. And, uh, we had a good, had a good victory, and, you know, uh, we made a good amount of money from, uh, this trial win that I never would've been able to do if I had been in too structured an organization.

Right. Um, you mentioned something very insightful. You said one of the reasons lawyers are terrible business people is they're supposed to know everything. So they assume they know everything about running a business, but they don't. So the fact that they're an authority on one side of the, you know, house, uh, makes them a bad student on the other side of the house. Right. And they have to become students. They have to say, I don't know anything about running a business, so let me become a student. Let me learn, let me grow. Um, so, um, the reason I'm bringing that up is, um, how did you figure this out? How did you master it? What are some of the tips you can share with our listeners who perhaps haven't realized this insight, which I think that self-awareness, which I'm sure is one of the reasons you have been successful,

Humility is an important thing to keep. And it's probably one of the hardest thing for lawyers to, uh, to grasp, uh, or to hold onto. And that is, you know, we are taught to be the sort of champions of others. We are, we are taught to be the advocates, and there's no room, uh, or people perceive that there's no room for humility. The reality, of course, is, is just the opposite. That, um, if you understand that you can learn from others, and that you don't have all the answers, you, you actually get to a higher state of enlightenment. And there are all kinds of, you know, uh, religions throughout the world that talk about this, this concept. And, uh, but, uh, somehow we haven't seemed to take that to light in, in, at least when it comes to practice of law.

Right. Because you are the warrior. So warrior cannot be, um, asking questions or saying, I don't know, something so that, but unfortunately, in different parts of our life, we are not the warrior. We are not the strongest person in the room. Um,

That's right.

Right. And, uh, did you learn this the hard way? Or how did you come across this? Uh, you know,

Well, um, I, I had, like I said, I had some good mentors, and I think that they showed me, um, how important it is to have more of a down to earth approach and, and humility. And also how working as a team is, is really an effective way to address problems. Right. And, and, and that's, uh, a key component. Um, I forget who it was, who said, no man is an island. And, uh, uh, now the updated version, of course is no person is an island. And, uh, certainly in law, uh, uh, if you have a team of people, it just makes everything easier and better, assuming, of course, you have talented team members. And that's, that's part of the challenge as a, as a business going forward, is how you do that.

Right. Um, as you know, we do, we, we, we are passionate about marketing. So what are some of the lessons you learned about marketing? You know, looking back at your 20 years, like, what is marketing in your mind and what do you think are key things to focus on?

I think key things to focus on are, uh, customer satisfaction. You know, getting, getting good reviews from, uh, your clients, your prior clients is extremely important. I never really focused on that much. Um, I focused on making my customers happy, my clients happy, but I, I never really thought about getting feedback from them. And so now there's so many avenues through Google Plus and through Yelp, um, and other forums to get, you know, positive, uh, feedback out there. Um, and, and I think people are attracted to that. You know, they're, they're always looking for the five star product, and that includes the five star attorney.

Absolutely. Um, you are kind of hitting on, on something really, really important in psychology. Um, I, I, I'm sure you may or may not have heard of him, his name is Dr. Robert Cini. He's a psychologist slash marketing prof at Arizona State University. And he wrote a book called Influence, uh, the Psychology, uh, uh, psychology of Persuasion. And, um, he noticed there are six, you know, uh, principles as he calls them, when used effectively influences people. And, um, for example, one of that is called Social Proof. We do what other people do. So you see a lineup outside of a restaurant, you are curious, and you might even join the lineup. Um, you see, um, other people like you doing something, you know, we wanna do that. So, um, especially the internet has made it so easy, right? In the old days, we relied on brands because, uh, oh, yeah, I trust, you know, uh, CIB, you know, I trust Citibank, or I trust the government, or whatever, right? But now, in two seconds, I can read reviews and I can see how many stars you have. So, uh, pretty much now brands are not that important, but really it's social proof that's really important. So I think, uh, that's a amazing insight. So you, what you're saying is it's not just how good you are, it's pretty much can you get these people to say those things publicly? So when others are deciding who to pick, they're like, yeah, this is the person I want to pick.

Right? How good people say you are, right, is probably more important nowadays than how good you are.

Exactly. It's perception is more important than reality.

And, and, you know, the nature of law is changing too. It used to be that, um, 99% of my cases came from referrals, and, and now that number is down probably to 50%, right? And the other 50% come from, from internet marketing. So, um, uh, it, it's therefore more important to make sure that you, uh, have a good relationship with your clients and that they, that they feel good about the experience. Right. Which, you know, is, I, I, I mean, I guess everybody could say, duh, that's exactly what any business wants. But, um, I think that as lawyers, we've been less focused on that. And, um, that may be why there's so many lawyer jokes,

<laugh>. Um, I think, I think you are right on the money. Um, like for example, um, um, um, you know, we tend to listen to authority figures. Um, so, you know, if you have given a talk or if you have been interviewed by somebody, and now I can watch that interview, I think you are an expert because we have been trained that somebody who's on TV who's being interviewed knows what he's talking about. So, uh, we talked about social proof, right? So that's one of the shortcuts we use to make decisions. The other one is authority. Um, so, um, so, so I just wanted to kind of put it out there, like, in the old days you couldn't do this. You to get in front of a TV station and, you know, be interviewed by the TV person, it might take you two years, you know, to build a relationship and so forth.

And then, um, you can't easily take that video and put it on your website, but now you could be easily interviewed on, um, you know, uh, on a TV show, and then easily have that video leveraged on your website so people come, can kind of, can, can come and, um, you know, like we talked about, perception is reality. So when you're interviewed and you're answering questions, and you are easy, and you know, you, you are somebody who's likable and who's friendly. Now that impacts whether they choose you or not. Um, the other point I want piggyback on what you said is you said something very interesting, you said, um, in, in the old days, 90 some percent, 98% were word of mouth. And today it's less than 50 or, you know, close to 50. And it's, it's coming down. And I think it's not that people don't tell each other.

The problem is how we tell each, tell each other has changed. You know, in the old days, we would call our cousin or mother on, on her birthday and wish her right Now you just do it on Facebook, you know, that's how most people do it. And you don't even remember when the birthdays are, because Facebook will tell you when the birthdays are. So, um, we have, it's like, you know, in the old days before telephones were invented, we would probably have to go to somebody's house to, you know, talk to them, you know, then the telephones came along and now we have Facebook, right? So, um, so now the way they would talk about you is, let's say there's a video of you explaining something, they would share it on their Facebook page, right? Or they would forward it to their friend. You know, that's just how they do things, you know? Um, yeah. You know, so I think, um, there's this saying, right? Like, um, if you want to get lucky by a lottery ticket, you know, same way, if you want people to talk about you make it easy for them to talk about you in the digital world, uh, you

Know, yeah. You know, it, it's so true what you say. I remember this comedy sketch, I, I watched, uh, from one of my favorite comedians, and, and he was talking about how he had done all these things for his girlfriend. He'd gotten her flowers and taken her out to a nice dinner and gotten her these lavish gifts. And at the end of the, at the end of the day, he goes to her and she's upset, and, and he says, why are you upset? And she says, because you didn't say happy birthday to me on Facebook <laugh>. And so I think it just shows you people are really tuned into their, to their internet, you know, social media, and, uh, it's something you gotta pay attention to.

Right? And I guess, again, this is where a strength becomes a weakness. Lawyers are so into doing their own thing and preparing for their cases. They don't pay attention to these other things. Exactly. And therefore they don't understand it, or they don't understand how to leverage it,

Right?

So we talked about two points. One is, um, you know, when, when it comes to marketing, one is, um, social proof. Uh, we talked about authority, actually three point. And the third one is we have to make it easy for people to talk about you. Right? Even word of mouth is changing, right? So make it easy for them to, you know, share your thoughts and information about you. Um, anything else you want to add? Um, um, when it comes to running a thriving practice, um, I know we talked about, you know, um, hiring the right people, uh, giving them a purpose and making it not about you, but about, you know, your purpose and your vision. Um, any other insights, uh, from your 20 plus years of experience? Ari?

I, I think the only other thing I'd add is, you know, make sure, uh, that, um, your workplace is fun too. Uh, it, it is, uh, I think they've learned this certainly in Silicon Valley, where, you know, they have all the basketball things and other things that people can do, air hockey and different games that employees can tell, you know, can do when, when people are working really hard and lawyers do work very hard. Um, it's important to make sure that they have outlets to, uh, have a little fun because, uh, if we are all working hard, uh, at least that journey should be, um, uh, an enjoyable one,

Right? I think I, I'm guilty of this as anybody, you know? Um, and it's hard, especially for those people who are like, you know, driven and more, you know, goal-oriented. We just want to go to the next mountain, right? And, um, how do you take the time to smell the roses and enjoy the journey as well? And, um, especially as a leader, I think you have to be very aware of this and actually force yourself to do it, because at least for me, it doesn't come naturally. You know? I just, it's something that, not the way I'm wired, you know, I'm just on to the next thing.

Absolutely.

Right. Um, and it's kind of funny, right? I mean, um, today we are like more prosperous than we ever were compared to 200 years ago, you know, 200 years ago. Most of us lived till we are 20 years old. And, you know, we probably didn't have, you know, more than, you know, little education where we could read and write and uh, uh, and we were happy just to have a meal on our table today. You know, we spend less than 2% of the economy worrying about food, and 98% worrying about all these other things, which we didn't even realize we needed 200 years ago. But still, we are not happy. I mean, that's the beauty of human beings that forces us to innovate, forces us to grow, forces us to, you know, make the world a better place. But at the same time, I think the point you're making is you need to appreciate what you have, you need to appreciate all the things that's going for you, that sense of, uh, gratitude, that sense of appreciation, and, and not just for yourself, but even for those around you. And it's hard. And I think you have to just work on it. And I think that's a great thought, um, to end our discussion with.

Well, um, I, uh, you know, I, I understand that life is short, particularly, particularly as I get older. Um, I, I appreciate, um, every day and, uh, I want people to have that same appreciation. And so having a, a place where you can commit yourself to a good cause and, and have fun while you're pursuing that, uh, certainly is the best kind of work environment to have.

Absolutely. Um, I, I really, really appreciate the time you have spent with us. Would you mind if, uh, let's say an attorney, uh, has a question, would you mind them reaching out to you?

Oh, absolutely. I'd be happy to talk to anybody.

That'd be great. So, um, what's the best way to reach you? Is it through your website?

Probably? Yes.

So it's civil rights, uh, ca.com for California. Yes. And, uh, do you mind if we share the website, um, you know, information along with the call notes, so anybody who's uh, uh, listening to the podcast can easily grab it?

Sure. That's fine.

Do you want us to share your email as well, or just, uh, share the website and let them contact you through the rest?

They can, uh, you can put both on there. That's fine. Oh,

Perfect. And your email is larry@civilrightsca.com?

Yes.

Perfect. Thank you very much, Larry. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today. And, um, uh, I know you're busy, so I really appreciate you taking the time. Um, and also I want

My, my pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you. And I also want to thank the listeners today, um, and, uh, hopefully you learned a few things from 20 years of wisdom summarized in, you know, a 30 minute conversation. So, uh, I learned a lot, Larry. I really appreciate it. And, uh, if you're listening to this and you like the podcast, please, um, you know, share your feedback on iTunes. Uh, you can also go to the website dominate law.com, and access the call notes and all the information, and of course, uh, tell your friends about it. So, uh, thank you very much for your time, and have a wonderful day.

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