The Importance of Specialization in your Law Firm with Dan Minutillo

Welcome to Dominate Law, bringing you the best insights and experiences of successful personalities to help your law firm grow exponentially. Hosted by Naranja, CEO of Echo Marketing, you are listening to Dominate Law podcast series, a game changer podcast for lawyers.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is Nareen, your host. Dominate Law is a podcast where we help lawyers in private practice create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. And we listen to those who have interesting experiences and we learn from them. Today, I'm super excited to have Mr. Ello, who is the founder of Ello Law Corporation based out of San Jose, California. He has been practicing law for more than 40 years. Dan, welcome.

Yes, thank you very much.

Um, before we jump in, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, uh, starting with why you even got into law?

Yes. Um, I've been practicing law, uh, in Silicon Valley, uh, since 1977. And, um, our practice is limited to, uh, government contract law, and international trade law matters, particularly export law for high technology products. Um, just, uh, by way of background, um, I've received the, uh, Silicon Valley Service Provider of the Year award as voted on by, uh, the most influential attorneys in Silicon Valley. Um, I worked on the massive, uh, US government search for extra extraterrestrial intelligence, uh, project, as well as Foy, which was first of a kind, uh, nuclear design certification. I, I worked on, uh, the Olympic Games, uh, the first, uh, president Obama Town Hall Worldwide webinar and, and other, uh, leading projects in the United States, both on the government contract law side and on the export law side. Um, again, by way of background, I served as an expert witness in United States Federal Court regarding my area of expertise.

Um, I've lectured to the World Trade Association. I taught law for UCLA, uh, for Santa Clara University Law School and their MBA program. Um, I lectured to the MPMA at Stanford University and to other national and regional attorney associations about government contract law and export law. I've been interviewed by the Washington Post routers and very other, various other, uh, uh, magazines and, and newspapers. So it's been a, a really varied, uh, and extremely interesting, uh, career. So that's, that's, um, uh, our, our focus is, has been, uh, export law and government contract law. And, uh, we've, we look at that as a, uh, as a specialty, and we try to avoid practicing any other types of law so that we can remain, um, focused and, and always able to stay up to date on the most current, uh, rules regarding, uh, those, uh, two areas. So, why I, uh, started practicing, I, I had an uncle that <laugh>, it sounds odd, but I had an uncle years back that was a lawyer. And, you know, I remember thinking, uh, that it seemed like as, as a young person, I thought, seemed like it would be a, a, a great profession.

And, uh, so really early on, I mean, I wouldn't, since in eighth grade, I started thinking about thinking about possibly becoming older. I helped that focus may have been a mistake. I'm, I'm, so, I ended up pressing, but it, it precluded me thinking about other, uh, fashions and other, um, types of things that I might be able to, but it worked out great. I'm really happy practicing. I really enjoyed it. I tell people never feel like I had a job. I've loved it so much. If, um, I really feel like I'm get stressful, but I, I've never really, like, I, when I get in the morning that I'm actually gonna work. It's, uh, it's been, it's been enjoyable. So other than, um, precluding other areas, other things that I might've been able to do with my professional life, um, focusing on one thing early on I think, uh, really helped me.

I remember as a eighth grader wandering over to the local superior courts here in, uh, in San Jose, Santa Clara County, and listening to lawyers make arguments make, and, you know, I just, I would be sitting there sometimes as the only person in the audience, and the judge would look over and say, geez, what the heck are you doing here? And I'd try to explain, and he would sort of chuckle and never thinking that I would continue with the process and, and, and actually become a, become a lawyer. So why I got into it is, uh, just, uh, because, you know, someone, my my uncle mentioned it to me once and, and for, for whatever reason, it stuck and I stuck with it all the way from, um, a little guy, uh, all the way through the old guy that I am now and still practicing full-time and, you know, going at it six days a week and, and, uh, really enjoying it. That's the story.

Absolutely. And before we talk about, um, you know, a couple of topics I know you and I discussed, um, that might be useful to people. One is around specialization in marketing. I do have two kind of questions based on your, your story and your bio. One is, tell us a little bit about Silicon Valley, because I'm sure you grew up with it, right? I mean, many of the companies are younger than you, <laugh> like Google and, you know, Facebook and, uh, even Apple. So, uh, yeah. So it's kind of interesting that you were, were you born there?

Well, um, I was raised in Silicon Valley. I I was born in Chicago, Illinois. And we, my family moved to Silicon Valley, and I was, um, I think I was eight, seven or eight years old, uh, really young. And we stayed here ever since. And I remember, um, uh, uh, riding my bicycle, uh, uh, and my skateboard on the various busy highways that, um, are being used now by thousands and thousands of people who are commuting to, uh, Silicon Valley to work. I mean, we used to hop on before the freeways were opened. Um, we used to hop on them with our bikes and our skateboards and go down the off ramps and just had fun. Most, most of, most of Silicon Valley was orchard, um, apricot cherries and prunes. And so we would, you know, after a day's of play, you'd be able to wander through the orchard, which is now Google and Hewlett Packard and Facebook, and now all of these, um, apple in particular, all of these, uh, companies.

And you'd wander through the orchard, pick some fruit off the trees, and, um, there were natural springs that would pop up and you'd be able to put your face over a spring and get a drink of water, and then you'd skateboard or bicycle home and, uh, start the whole process, <laugh> start the whole process the next day. So yes, it's changed a lot, but from my view, it's been very, very productive because the, I got to know the leaders of these companies, and I've done work for the companies that you, that you mentioned, and also for almost every large company in Silicon Valley. Um, we have done work for them and continue to, uh, for many of them. And, and that's primarily because one, we try to do a, a good job for them. But secondly, I've been here so long and I met the founders and, and the people that, um, the lawyers that, uh, were involved here early on with, with, with what are now massive companies.

And it gave me a tremendous opportunity to, um, uh, to get to know them and to do legal work for them. So we continue to represent many, if not most of the large companies here in Silicon Valley for, uh, US government contract law and export law. Um, and, um, other companies that have popped up a lot of the startups and other companies that have popped up. And that's primarily because we got an early start, an earlier start than, than most lawyers. And that's, uh, relates to me being, uh, raised here, uh, in the valley. So, just a side note, um, right now, right across from, um, uh, I think, I think Hewlett Packard is on the corner, um, is, is kind of where I was raised. And I built a tree house as a, you know, a 9-year-old, um, and, uh, a couple of weeks ago, way up in the top of a pepper tree, which still, which still stands. So I, I took a ride by their, um, a couple weeks back and took a flashlight, 'cause it was nighttime after work, and looked up the, uh, tree and boy, there were parts of the tree house still there. And that had to be, you know what, gosh, 50, 60 years ago. Yes. Six, about 60 years ago. And parts of it are still there. So it's, so I have some great memories of Silicon Valley, but I'm also really grateful that it built up as it did, because it had a huge benefit for our law practice.

Right. I guess when you're like 10 years old, if you had bought some land, I'm sure you'll be worth a hundreds of millions of dollars today, <laugh>.

Well,

The value of land has probably grown up, so in Silicon Valley compared to, uh, you know, 50 years ago.

Yeah. And just a side note, we did buy land, so it worked out just fine,

<laugh>. That's

Great. So yeah, it's just, it's changed. It's changed a lot, but you know, it, it's more congested now. But from a practitioner's viewpoint, it's, it's better because we have some of the greatest, uh, minds in the country here in Silicon Valley, and it's just been a putter to work with, uh, these folks.

Right, right. Um, the other question I had is, you'd mentioned, uh, you were involved with, uh, president Obama's, uh, town Hall slash webinar. Tell us more about what was that, and especially as a lawyer, what was your role in it?

Yeah, so we represented, I don't wanna mention any client names, uh, but we represented a very large, um, um, internet provider who you, you probably use often,

I'm sure, I think in Facebook. But anyways, go ahead, <laugh>.

Well, I, I, I don't wanna mention any names, but, um, and, and, uh, they were involved in helping, um, the, the, uh, uh, president's President Obama's team to provide that. First, if you recall, he, he, uh, did the very first town hall, which was totally internet based. It was typically a webinar. Yeah. And, uh, you had to ask questions. I probably remember it. You had to ask your questions via Mayo or test. And, uh, there was no one room other than, you know, him and his aides and those sorts of folks. And we had the webinar and we were all able to dissipate. And, uh, we worked on that, uh, with the team, get that up and, and, um, it really enjoyable experience. Okay. And if I start to break up, stop me and, uh, we'll, we'll, uh, come up with a solution.

Right?

So regarding specialization, um, if you intend, as I did to be, and to remain a small law firm, there are, there, there are, we're, we're a small firm, and we want to be a small boutique law firm, then it's, you come to the realization that you cannot compete, for example, for, with mergers and acquisitions, with, um, large business transactions, uh, with international negotiations, you can't compete with the very large mega big law firms because the, for the most part, clients, business clients, and they're usually the Fortune 100 companies that are involved in major mergers are not gonna come to a small law firm like ours to handle that merger. But the lawyers from the big law firms that are handling the merger, and sometimes the businesses that are involved in the law firm, uh, that are involved in the merger will come to a small boutique for a specific area that relates to the merger.

For example, there may be some issues regarding export law, whether or not one of the AC companies or the company to be acquired properly followed export law regarding, uh, a transaction that took place before the merger. The large law firm or the large company may come to us to handle that very, very small part that might relate to a wrapper assert or some other disclosure, that very small part of the transaction. So they won't, and this is just a very simple example. They won't come to us to do the merger, but often these, the large law firms and very, very large companies come to us for a small sliver of work that needs to be done regarding the merger. Now, let's put that aside for a second. So what that has done, it's allowed our firm not only to meet the lawyers from the big law firms that are involved in this massive merger, but also to meet all of the in-house counsel from the various companies that are merging or acquiring of a, a, another company.

So there, in that one transaction, we may have met 20, 25, 30 lawyers who are relying upon us for a tiny, tiny part that relates to the merger. But what happens is, because they realize we're specialized and, you know, we try to do a good job for them and are quick, quick and responsive because we're nimble, we're small, they, after the merger is concluded, they come to us for more work, either US government contract law issues, or export issues or regulatory issues, they will come to us for more work. And that's how, that's one of the reasons that we decided to specialize. So to summarize that, we can't compete with the mega law firms on billion dollar products, like massive mergers. We don't have the person power to be able to do that, but we can help them through the process or help other lawyers through the PO process if there are issues regarding US government, contract law, and export law.

And so that's why we specialized. It's a way for us to learn our niche, keep our niche, and help and be involved in these major projects. Some of them that I mentioned in my bio, in these major projects that we never would've been able to do as a small boutique firm because the, these massive companies would not have come to us to do that work. So that's why we specialized and we did it early on. You know, I've been involved with this for almost my entire career. So we were able, we've been able to meet thousands of lawyers because we do a small bit of work on a very, very large project.

Right. Um, so what you're saying is, um, you have to become useful to somebody, uh, instead of trying to be use useful to, uh, useful on lots of different things. You chose to be useful to a lot of people on one, one thing or two things.

Correct.

And you're saying that's essential if you are a small boutique firm, because there's no way you can have the breadth and be remembered by people. But when you specialize, even though you are a tiny firm, people are gonna remember you because you chose to become the best at that one or two things.

Correct. And that keeps us busy six days a week, you know, all year long. We're, we're usually, um, have a full plate here. So yes, it works.

Right. Um, now let's, you had a unique life, unique career. You happen to be in Silicon Valley. You grew up with companies today whose market cap is number one, number two, and number three in the world. Uh, you know, give or take, you know, maybe number one, number four or number five, right? So you have a unique story, but, and you were born at a unique time. I mean, literally you were there before Apple was born, you know what I mean? Uh, so will this work for anybody else who's just coming out of law school today, or who has been, you know, you know, practicing and kind of still figuring their way out over the last five, 10 years?

10, yes. And that, and let me tell you why that brings us to the next topic, which is marketing. So we, we have always been against any form of blatant advertising because I believe that it doesn't really attract the type of client that requires a specialization. So rather than, so, so I, I'm going to answer your question, but just, just bear with me. Rather than, you know, going out there and putting out splashy advertisements and saying, Hey, we're here, we do government contra till, does government contract law and export law that is regulatory law. Rather than doing that, I think the new practitioner could use the same model that we used. And that is as follows, what we did very early on is we lectured about government contract law and export law, every opportunity that I had, and sometimes that meant twice a week as a young lawyer going out to different groups in Silicon Valley.

And actually it turned out to be across the United States, um, to lecture on my area of expert, my areas of expertise. So lecturing to provide information that is to help attorneys in large law firms, medium-sized law firms and small law firms. One, understand what you do as a lawyer in a niche boutique law firm. And two, to get the word out that you're willing to, um, help them with projects. And most importantly, three, to provide information to them that will help them work with their clients, which will result in a call to you, the specialist, about a particular project. It may not happen in a week or a month, but at some point, almost every lecture that I give, and I'm still lecturing all the way through, uh, today, my next one is in Texas. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. The next one is in Texas, as a matter of fact.

Um, all the way through today, it may that, that it may not result in an immediate client, but over a year or so, you'll get calls from people and they'll say, Hey, I attended your lecture on, uh, encryption as it relates to, uh, exports of high tech products. And I've got a question for you regarding that. And I've picked up very, very large clients who we normally would have no chance at representing based on our specialty and from lectures. So I would tell the new practitioner, figure out your specialty. Learn it really, really well, better than anyone else.

Begin, start lecturing. Now, once you've made those contacts, um, through lectures that you give to bar associations, to various large companies, to, um, clubs and groups, um, and other associations that are sort of relevant. Once you've done that, then the next thing you wanna do is gather the email addresses. Back when I started, it was actually the physical addresses. 'cause you sent real letters, <laugh>, um, email addresses of the, uh, various people that you've met. And you start a newsletter bank. In other words, you start lists of people that you've met in your travels, names and email addresses, and you create every month a short, concise directed newsletter talking about something new. In, in our case would be US government contract law, and export law, something new, and send it out to them. And it will take time for that to take hold, but it works. And if it gets slow, you increase your number of lectures, you get to a point where it's really hard to sandwich the lectures in because you have so much legal work. But it's not gonna happen overnight. I mean, if you, you know, because I, I just oppose this concept of splashy advertisements for lawyers. It just isn't something we, you know, I don't, I'm not judgemental about it. If people wanna do it, that's fine. It's just not for us.

Yeah. I mean,

I'm sorry.

Yes, I agree with you. Actually, there is a science behind what you're saying. Uh, there's an interesting book, you may or may not have read it. It's called Influence the Psychology of Persuasion, uh, by Dr. Robert Cini. He's a psychologist slash marketing professor at Arizona State. Um, so he studied, you know, uh, what works when it comes to influencing people. And he came up with six principles, and he added a seventh one recently, uh, where if you use those principles, your ability to influence people goes up 300%. And one of the principles he talks about is authority. We tend to obey authority figures. You know, people obey Hitler, people listen to Oprah and go by a book because Oprah told them to. Right? What you're doing is you are becoming the authority. So if and when I need help, and I have this pretty important case, who do I call? I call the person who is an authority. It's like, would you go to Dr. Phil himself or would you go to somebody else down the street if you had a choice?

Exactly. Right. But the, the, the, the what what happens is sometimes young lawyers, because they might be deep in debt from law school or they're just in a hurry, they don't take the time to develop the expertise necessary to become an authority. That's one. Second thing is young lawyers will sometimes say to themselves, well, I'm 28 years old, I'm just outta law school. No one is gonna look at me as an authority. That is not true. I started lecturing. I actually started lecturing when I was, uh, 16. It wasn't about the law. It was about political issues. Um, and yes, I was young, and yes, there was an audience in front of me of adults, but there was some respect there. Now, if you've made your way through law school and through the bar exam, and you've taken the time, and sometimes it's nights, you know, where you're, you're in a library at night reading and understanding and listening to lectures and that sort of thing, if you take the time to do that, and you really come across as an expert in the area, it doesn't, your age is going to be, if you're, you know, 28 years old and you're talking to, you know, 60-year-old lawyers who have been practicing for 30 or 40 years, at first there might be a little bit of skepticism.

But if you prove your worth, you prove that, you know, your stuff that's skepticism is quickly overshadowed by your authority. So, to young lawyers, I would say, um, uh, just you've gotta put in the time to really learn a small, small niche care like area of the law, get it down so that it becomes part of you as soon possible. And then get yourself in front of audiences. And as long as you've really learned, and as long as you know how to communicate, which is our business, you, um, um, uh, clients will gravitate to you no matter what your age.

Right? There's a few other points I wanna kind of reinforce for the benefit of our listeners. Um, also as people, we have mindsets. Like, for example, when somebody's on tv, we think they're on authority, right? When somebody's on a famous newspaper, we think they're on authority. So, um, so you can be very strategic about this. Like, for example, if everybody knows Wall Street Journal, and for whatever reason you were mentioned in Wall Street Journal, you could keep repeating that in your marketing material, in your website, right? So knowing what are those triggers that people, like, for example, you, you made up another point that I think is very true. Um, authorities are not born, they're created. Oprah was not Oprah 35 years ago, she became Oprah. You know what I mean? Yes. There was a time when she was working in the middle of nowhere, uh, you know, where nobody ever heard of it.

Now, probably billion people know who Oprah is and take a very seriously. Um, so I do think authority can be created, and I do think it can be done in a strategic way. You don't have to. I mean, yes, just for practice, you could, you know, take every lecture you can, but over time, if time has becomes an issue, you can pick and choose the one that helps you become more of an authority versus the ones where it may not. So I think you can evolve, you can change, uh, like for example, you and I are doing a podcast right now. You didn't pick, you know, get on a plane book travel, spend three days, you're at your home and doing this. And this is, you know, broadcast worldwide. You know, anybody in the world can listen to it as long as they have a, you know, a way to listen to podcast, right? But you're not. So I think the concept of authority works, but I think you can be very strategic and smart about how to go about building that authority, and you can leverage, you know, the technologies and the times we live in. Any comments on that? That

Yes, yes. Um, that, that's true. So yes, I can sit at my office here with you now, and we're not wasting any travel time, and this is very targeted. And, you know, attorneys will, uh, hear about, uh, the Mila Law firm and what we do and that sort of thing, and it's, it's a positive thing. But there is something that, um, and, and it's very time efficient. However, it's two things when you're starting out, um, usually, um, you want to set aside, even if it means travel. And I traveled every chance I got because I, I wanted to get as many lectures in per week as I could to talk about, you know, our law firm. Um, when you first start out, you, you sort of will, will be inefficient, but that's okay, as long as each day you're learning and, and learning about efficiency in your lectures and your marketing, um, and you grow and change. So, but there's one other point. It's not only creating an image that you are an authority in the law. It's just like medicine. Because our work is so, so important to clients, you need to be an authority. For example, Oprah or Dr. Phil or whomever, they have a certain image and there's room for them to maneuver considering that image. And there's room for hyperbole and there's room for, uh, boasting and that sort of thing. In the law, there is no room,

Right?

You have to, you must know what you're talking about, and otherwise you're gonna hurt someone. You're gonna hurt a client. So what I strongly recommend is that yes, these other figures and how they've done it, and you know, they're on, uh, folks that are, you know, um, um, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, that are, that are popular on the net now. And through various social media sites, they have room to maneuver. They're what they're about. As lawyers, we don't, what we are about is being able to interpret the law in a way that helps the client. And that's very focused and very specific. So I say, don't only create the image like I've been interviewed by the Washington Post routers and the all sorts of folks, and that's great, and it's fun to, fun to talk to the general public about the law. But when I'm talking with a client, it's gotta be incredibly focused and absolutely correct, um, because they could be hurt. So don't create the image that you're in authority, be an authority, and the image will follow.

Right? So what he's saying is, yes, from a marketing standpoint, what we talked about makes ton of said, but, but from a professional standpoint, it's not just the image, but it has to be real.

Absolutely. Otherwise, you're going to hurt a client, and that's the last thing that you wanna do,

Right? And the other thing that's interesting that Dr. Cini talks about is what he calls social proof. We tend to do what we see others like us doing. Um, and there have been experiments, like there was an experiment where, you know, this was a black and white experiment where in an elevator, uh, people were, you know, they hired three actors and they told the three actors to face the back of the elevator. And there was one person standing facing the front like everybody's supposed to. But after a while, he starts turning, and he also starts facing the back because he assumes that when everybody else is doing things a certain way, he must do it that way, otherwise he doesn't fit in. So this notion of social compliance is so powerful. And, uh, I mean, I run a marketing company, and we think about this a lot.

We build products a lot. So what I find is when you're building a brand new business, a brand new product, usually you start with authority. You, you become somebody. So people start wanting to listen to you, wanting to talk to you. And the way you do that is you associate yourself with other authority figures. Like, for example, when you go and lecture at a important meeting, the fact that you have been invited to lecture at that important meeting now through association, you become the authority. That's what Oprah did when she was starting out. She was not nobody, but after a while, she started interviewing more and more famous people. And after a while, the human mind, especially from a marketing standpoint, I'm wearing the marketing hat right now, uh, starts thinking that she's the authority because she's seen with other authority figures, right? And eventually, when Obama ran for president, you know, she was one of the first people to introduce Obama to the world, you know, because now she was the authority, because lots of people listen to her and, you know, listen to what she has to say.

So what I'm, what I'm trying to share with our listeners, and, and I want your feedback on it, is, so authorities is really important, but sometimes later on social proof kind of Trumps authority. So for example, um, the podcast dominate law, right? When we first started out, nobody wanted to be on the show. Then little by little we started getting famous attorneys to be on the show. Now, when they see famous attorneys being on the show, more and more important people wanted to be on the show, because if other famous attorneys are doing it, it must be okay for me to do it as well. That social compliance, that social proof. Um, and then eventually we get people calling us saying, can I be on your show? So the whole table turns and, uh, it's kind of fascinating and interesting, you know, how the human mind works and how people perceive things. I mean, today we live in a world where there are celebrity, you know, politicians, right? Prime presidents and prime ministers, and you name it.

Yes, yes. I agree to a point. Um, here's what I would say on that. Yes, that's absolutely correct. I, I remember starting out, and even through today, I would share the podium with very well-known, extremely bright attorneys from very large, big law firms. And that would give me instant credibility. So you, because I'm speaking, I'm sharing the podium equally with one of those attorneys, the audience will look at me and say, wow, he's gotta be a very good attorney also. And that's true. However, once you've established yourself as a true authority, whether it's in the field of like US government, contract law, or export law, once you've established yourself, then here's what I would say. I'll use your example of the three actors facing the back of the elevator, right? So if you've established yourself as an authority, now what you need to do is stand out.

You wanna continue to face the front of the elevator, be, and every article that you write and every lecture that you give should have a little twist on it that allows you to stand out. For example, each time I lecture, I normally follow, you know, the lawyers that I deal with are extremely bright. And so they enjoy talking about a topic esoterically, in other words, in great theoretical detail. And it's enjoyable to listen to 'cause they have such great minds. So if I follow them, the first thing that I say, so that I will stand out, is that I'm gonna provide you, when I'm speaking to the audience, some very practical information so that when you leave this room and you're sitting at your desk, you'll be able to look back and say, Hey, Dan Ello said this about that. And it was very specific and very practical and very workable as opposed to theoretical. And I'm gonna be able to use that information that he provided. So my point is, you wanna face, once you've established yourself as an authority, you wanna face the front of the elevator, even though everybody else is facing the back so that you are recognized.

Absolutely. I, I totally agree with that. I think, yeah, we are so overcrowded with information today, right? The average person is listening to hundreds or, you know, getting hundreds of pieces of information, if not thousands every day. So they're not gonna remember you. So what are you going to do? So that they do remember you?

Exactly right. And so you, once now, you have to become the authority first. And it has to be real, not perceived like, like actors and, uh, actresses. It's not perceived. It has to be real. You really have to understand. Then you go out and you do your lectures, you get to be known as the authority, then you can face the front of the elevator,

Right?

By providing information that's slightly different than is being provided by your colleagues.

Absolutely. And the other thing that I think you did very smart from a marketing standpoint is you created a newsletter. 'cause what happens? You go and give a lecture and they never hear from you again. So most of us, yeah, they'll remember you for a week or two, but then they forget. But if they're on a newsletter and they keep hearing from you once a month or every couple of weeks, they're not gonna forget. Maybe they don't need you today, but you know what, there'll come a time when they need to talk to someone like you. And, and not only did you make a good first impression by, uh, you know, leveraging that authority and standing out, but now you are making sure that they don't forget you.

Yes. Can I, can I just quickly, uh, because, 'cause this might really help your listeners. There's two things. For example, regarding our newsletter, I always try to have a double purpose for the letter. For example, I'm writing one now that I'm gonna submit to a symposium that's happening in France for, um, groups of, of lawyers that are involved in regulatory law. So I use that paper that I'm submitting to the symposium as a newsletter. So it has a double purpose. I send it out to my, uh, client base, they get a chance to read it, and I also use it for the symposium. That's number one. So you want multipurpose, uh, multi, uh, purposes for your newsletter. Second ne, I rarely, I wanna say never, but that's probably not true. I rarely gave out, uh, cards or give out cards with my, you know, business cards to people that I meet.

I always ask, take their card, because I know that if I give them mine, because I wanna develop a business relationship, they may not call me, but if they give me theirs, I'm able to get them onto our news, into our newsletter base. And I also, now I'm in control of who's gonna contact whom. So lawyer friends of mine say, yeah, I would tell me when I was really young, boy, I gave out a hundred cards this week. And I would say that they'd ask me, how many did you give out? Say none. But I took a hundred cards in and I put those people in our database and I contacted them. So it really, um, it's just sort of a different way of looking at things, right? When you're starting out

And you always think about, how can I add value, right? You're never thinking about how do I get something? I mean, you spend hours writing that newsletter, so, but you, you may not get anything out of it, but that's okay, because if you add value to them, they're gonna remember you.

Right? And in particular nowadays, because these mega Fortune 100 corporations are very budget oriented, so they need to justify the lawyers, the in-house counsel or the general counsel that we deal with for these large corporations need to justify either to their board or to the CEO or to their boss why they spent money on legal services. What was the value add? So nowadays, in particular, you always have to be thinking, what value are you adding to this project to help the client? If the answer's none, you're not gonna see that client again,

Right? So in, in this case, the value you are adding is you're also becoming a valuable source of information, so they don't have to spend the time or money to keep up with that particular area that you are an expert in.

Yes. Not only that, you might be getting them out of a massive problem with the government that would've cost them hundreds, if not millions and millions of dollars for some violation of a regulation that you were able to show them a legal path outta. So that could be the value add also.

Right? Right. Interesting. One last thing I noticed is you're very aware of your audience, right? I mean, you are very clear that your audience are attorneys who work for these corporations, how, who work for these other law firms who need your help, for example, in a big transaction, but then that relationship blossoms into something, you know, long lasting. So even when you write, even when you lecture, you're very careful on you going to events or writing for magazines or newsletters that attract the audience you are interested in. You're very careful on how you communicate with these audience, so they understand what you're talking about.

Yes, that's correct. So I always ask myself three questions before I go to a, uh, uh, a lecture or before I send out, for example, um, an article for a symposium, who, what and where. So who am I talking to and why? Is what I'm talking about going to be interesting to them? And where am I in the country that, for example, if I talk to, uh, a group of lawyers in Silicon Valley that are interested in high tech encryption issues on export, um, that's gonna be much different than talking to, um, the, the National Farm Bureau in, um, um, uh, in Kansas, um, or Nebraska that might be interested in avoiding tariffs trade when export, when exporting their China, everything.

That makes sense. Um, one last question I had. Um, what do you think about travel? I know when you're starting out, you can't be picky and choosy, but like now that you have, you have a very well established practice. I I'm sure you sometimes travel because you want to give back, you want to help others. But from a business standpoint, is it better to find people locally or is it better to, you know, go to all corners of the earth to, to establish yourself as an authority?

Okay, so back when I first started, 40 some odd years ago, you had to get on an airplane and travel to either the client or to the group. There was no option. Now with Skype and other forms of, um, uh, webinar presentations and, uh, FaceTime and that sort of thing, travel merely means opening up your computer and clicking on an icon to start the conversation, the face-to-face conversation with a group of clients. I mean, I give lectures right here in my office, and I might be talking to a hundred lawyers sitting in some mega law firm in New York. I haven't moved, but a few inches. So travel, travel, the concept of exchanging ideas and traveling to different parts of the world, uh, to exchange ideas has radically changed because of, um, because of, uh, technology like Skype and FaceTime, et cetera.

Right? Right. I learned a lot from you today. Um, and, um, I see when I go to your, um, website, it has, uh, um, like you don't have some of the, like the magazines or some of the places you have lectured, right? I see a recent client highlights and I see firm news.

Yes.

Is that something by choice or you think you, if if you, you may want to also add some of these, uh, um, things you, because you've done a lot, right? Over a 40 year period, but you only are listing the recent ones.

Yes. So let me tell you why. So if you go to the site, the www.mintilllaw.com site, we've, you, you, you're there. We've kept it very plain. If you notice it's in black and white mm-hmm

<affirmative>.

Now think about that. Every other site that you look at is splashy. It has, um, streaming. It has, and ours has some, but not much. It has streaming. It has incredibly bright, deep colors now, and, and they're incredibly complicated. So what we chose to do was do just the opposite because it's like the guy in the elevator, again, facing the right way as opposed to facing the wrong direction as the actors are facing. We chose to keep it very simple and clear, and that's why we chose black and white. You know, we, we list, we, we keep our lists, um, uh, understated and some of the things that we've done understated to show substance. And that's, that's, so we yes. That has all been by design,

Right? Right. Absolutely. You see this,

If, if you're looking at the www.minlaw.com, you see that it's in black and white. Do you have it up up there on your screen?

Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I do.

Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy simple,

Right? And it makes sense, right? Because you are in Silicon Valley, who is your audience? You know, engineers, right? Techies men, right? And they don't want the flashy stuff. They just want you to give them real solid, detailed, you know, information. I mean, they don't want the flash,

Right? And, and, and the black and white is a throwback. It sort of makes it, it's, it, it, it shows, uh, not only a tradition, but it shows, um, a depth, a substance, a tradition. Um, and I think most people call and say, wow, I've opened that thing up and I expected a lot of glitz and glamor because of what you've done. But boy, it's just direct to the point, and it's in black and white <laugh>,

Right? And I see that, um, you know, you have this section called recent lectures, and you're listing everything, you know, and you have where you're lecturing to universities, where you're lecturing to law firms, even, you know, the dominate laws. So like, without really having to listen or read the whole lectures, they, they get the idea that you are an authority because all these people want you to come and speak to them.

Yes. And that's a very, very, very small list. But yes, that's true. But remember, it's not only if you're practicing law medicine, something where you can really hurt someone. It's not only the perception. You have to be the authority. You have to study hard enough to truly be the authority, not just provide the perception that you're an authority. Absolutely. And then you'll be successful.

I totally agree, because lives depend on it. Millions of dollars depend on your advice.

Yes.

Thank you very much, Dan. I really enjoyed our conversation. I learned a lot, and I'm sure our listeners would learn a lot to, uh, listening to you. Um, if somebody has a question or if somebody wants to learn from you, do you mind if I give them your website? Like, or is there a preferred way to contact you?

Yeah, give them the website and also the email address is dan DA n@minutilllaw.com. M-I-N-U-T-I-L-L-O-L-A w.com. dan@minlaw.com, they're welcome to, if, if a young lawyer in particular or anyone has a question, just uh, have them send me an email or give me a phone call or direct them to our website, I'd be more than happy to help somebody that's, um, that's, uh, trying to figure all of this out.

I do appreciate you taking the time. Uh, I know this is, uh, this may not bring any direct business to you because you deal with a certain group of people, but, but I think the reason you are doing this is because you want to give back, you know, hopefully when you are young, others helped you along the way, other lawyers who have been there, done that. So I do appreciate you wanting to do the same for the, you know, the younger generation.

Yes. I'm glad. I'm glad to help.

Thank you very much, Dan, and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the Dominate Law Podcast Show. You can access this show by going to dominate law.com plus from iTunes or any other podcast program that you use on your phone. Um, you know, leave a review for us, share it on social media, um, you know, ask Dan questions and uh, and, uh, let's all work together to help each other create a bigger future. Thank you very much. Have a wonderful day.

You too. Thank you very much.

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