The nuts and bolts of how to build and grow a Law Practice with Gary Bennett

Welcome to Dominate Law, bringing you the best insights and experiences of successful personalities to help your law firm grow exponentially. Hosted by Naranja, CEO of Echo Marketing, you are listening to Dominate Law podcast series, a game changer podcast for lawyers.

Hello everyone. Welcome to my second episode with Gary Bennett, a serial entrepreneur who not only has started his own business, uh, but actually runs two businesses right now and also helps other attorneys, um, you know, co go out on their own and build a law practice. Gary, welcome back to the Dominate Law Podcast show.

Thank you, Narin. It's a pleasure to be back.

So, I know when we left off last time, um, we wanted to talk about, you know, the nuts and bolts of running a law practice, nuts and bolts of building a law practice, because there's a lot of people who want to go out on their own and perhaps even have gone out on their own, but not having as much success as as, as they would like or as they deserve. So, um, unfortunately, these are things that you don't learn, learn in law school. So you and I thought, okay, maybe we can get into that. Maybe we can share the lessons from your life and your experience. Um, so, um, what I would like to spend our time today on is let's get into some nuts and bolts of how to build a law practice. Let's start with that, and then let's get into how to grow a law practice. Is that, is that a fair topic, Gary?

Absolutely. I, I love talking about, it's one of the most favorite things I love talking about. I do it on a daily basis with the members of my business, and I'd be more than happy to share some of the things I've learned over the years with whoever wants to listen.

Absolutely. Um, so let's start, you know, from your life. I mean, you have, I know you and I were talking, you said you have 12,000 people in your database, right? So one of the key things, um, for anybody trying to build a law practice is to grow that database of people who are your clients or people who refer people to you, people who you refer to, because really it's, it's about the network. You're not an island on your own. You are really building this network. Is that a fair comment?

Absolutely. One of the things that I try to do is, uh, I know what I'm good at, and as a lawyer, I will tell any potential client, these are the areas that I can help you in. But there are also people that call and they don't need my services. They need the services of somebody else. And one thing I like to be is a solution for anybody who calls me. And sometimes I am the direct person who's gonna help with that solution. Other times it's a colleague, a friend of mine, or one of my contacts who can help them, whether it's with marketing, whether it's with employment, meaning employing somebody new, whether it is with some other need that they have for their business. I like to be a solution so that I can refer people, refer my clients especially, and others who call me to people who can provide solutions. And in that way, people will tend to remember who you are. And regardless of the type of problem or issue they run into, they're generally happy to call you because they know even if you can't do it yourself, you're gonna find someone who can help them. And that's essentially what they need. They need a solution to a problem.

Right.

As you mentioned, my database is, is fairly large at this point, and I like to, I do my best to stay in touch with the people in my database and, and just provide information from time to time. But most importantly, I like the idea of being able to refer people business. And when you refer somebody business, one of the lessons I've learned in life is that people will bend over backwards to return the favor and refer you business. So the moment, and this happens time and time again with law firms, it happens with people in different other walks of life. The moment you refer somebody, a client or some business that's gonna earn them some money, they immediately take an interest. They'll remember your name, they'll remember what you do, and they're gonna try their hardest to send business back to you. And that's one passive way that you can actually grow your business is by, you know, it's a concept. It's sowing and reaping, and you sow into somebody else's business and they reap a harvest, and they will do their best to sow into your business. So you reap a harvest too, because they know that they've profited and they want to do whatever they can to help you to profit as well, so that you feel as though the relationship is mutual and together we all grow.

Right. So, you talked, talked, talked about many, many, many key points that I wanna highlight. The first point you you mentioned is, um, you want to be a problem solver. Clients don't call you just for you expertise. They're calling you because they think you can solve a problem for them. So regardless of whether you're gonna make money or not, or whether you're going to refer that person to somebody you know and trust, if they, if they know that you solved their problem, who are they gonna come back the next time? Right. So, well,

That's exactly right. So I, I see that time and time again and, and when I'm referring business to different people, you know, let's be clear, I'm, I'm referring, I have a principal, I like to refer people to the person who can best solve their problem. And if it's not me, uh, I send the client and I send them, and I don't ask for or expect a referral fee or any type of honorarium, there's nothing like that. I refer the client to the lawyer or advocate who can help them. And that's it. And many people respect that. There are a lot of people that like the idea of having a referral fee because they tend to refer more people than they actually receive. I prefer to do it without a referral fee because I think people are more appreciative and it gives them the freedom to send clients back to me.

Right. So the second principle you talked about is reciprocity. And you know, as you know, we do your marketing and we do marketing for others. And, uh, we are big fans of, uh, this, uh, person by the name of Dr. Robert Cini, who is a psychologist who wrote a book called Influence. And he talks about how do you get people to do things for you, right? I mean, we are all in sales. One of, you know, eventually we have to sell our clients, we have to sell the jewelry, we have to sell, you know, others we work with. So, um, how do you influence people? And, um, he realized that there are six principles, actually, there are seven now, if used correctly, it increases people saying yes to you. And the number one principle he talks about is reciprocity. So it's in the human psyche.

When somebody does something nice to you, we feel bad when we don't do something nice back to them. I'm sure you all know this, right? Somebody comes to your birthday, brings this nice expensive bottle of wine, you will try to do as good, if not better than what that person did for you. You will remember that expensive bottle of wine and you feel guilty that you couldn't do it, right? And, uh, so you're talking about by giving them that gift saying, Hey, no catch. I think this is good for my client, but also it's good for you and I like you, so I'm giving you this gift. And without expecting a referral fee, you are kind of using one of the oldest principles in, you know, uh, I would say oldest, you know, habits of humans. We pay back a favor, we pay back a nice gesture, right? Yeah. So, uh, absolutely.

Yeah, because I'm a Christian, it is, for me, it's a Christian principle called sowing and reaping that I get from teachings of Jesus. You, you sow the, you know, just as you have sow, so shall you reap a harvest. And so I would like to, you know, refer clients to as many of my colleagues and friends as I can. And, and again, one thing it does as well for the client is it gives the client the confidence to know that they're not going to have me try and do a transaction that I'm not familiar with. I'm not gonna try and learn something on the fly so I can make a buck from my client. My clients feel confident that when I know the practice areas that I deal with, I will help them. And when I don't know the areas that they need, they know that they're gonna get referred to someone who will help 'em. And that builds their trust in me, in my judgment, and it gives them a span of people they can work with. And they always return because they know that they can confidently ask that question when they're vulnerable and they'll get a good answer,

Right? An answer that's not motivated by greed, but an answer that's best for them.

Exactly.

Right. And, um, that's, that's amazing. So we talked about building that database. So how did you end up with this massive database? Like, give us, I mean, of course, I'm sure when you started doing this, you didn't do things right, but I'm sure you made a lot of mistakes. What were some of the mistakes you made early on in building this network, and what are some of the best practices you used today to build this network?

So it's amazing. I started out about, almost 18 years ago to the day. And what I did not do was I did not keep track of the people that came into contact with me very well. I didn't keep track of where they were and what they were doing. And part of it was, as a young lawyer, there's so many things that you're trying to learn at the same time. First of all, you're, you're trying to master the area of law that you wanna practice in, and then you're trying to master understanding the relationships with the people you're working with, or in many cases, the people you're working for. And then you're trying to understand clients and client needs, and you're also trying to figure out how the business side of being a lawyer and running a law firm works. So there are all these moving parts and, and you can't be good at all of them.

And one of the mistakes I made was I was trying to be good at everything at the same time. And through trial and error, I eventually learned, you, you have to just focus on a few things. And so I focused early on, on trying to just understand the area of law that I wanted to practice in, or the areas that I enjoyed. And in so doing, I wasn't very good at keeping track of the clients and keeping track of the people that actually build the business, because I was just learning to be efficient and learning to be effective as a lawyer. If I could have done both at the same time, it would've been amazing. But over time, I eventually got better at keeping track of clients. And I can tell you there was a time approximately eight years ago when I lost most of my database.

And at that time, we didn't have electronic means of keeping data. We didn't, I didn't have access to a backup system in the cloud. Nobody talked about clouds. We were just learning the internet at that time. And it was amazing because I had so many people, so many businesses, so many individuals in the database. And I'd lost it because I simply didn't have it backed up on paper and there was no real electronic backup that I had access to. And when I rebuilt it, again, the number one lesson I learned was how to back it up, how to keep physical hard copies of information in additional, in addition to several electronic copies so that if disaster comes, there was always gonna be some means, whether it's typing the data in name by name and phone number by phone number or email address by email address, or a backup copy that you can simply throw into a USB port and say, copy and download.

So those are some of the lessons that I learned along the way. And, and building the database has been a privilege and a pleasure. You know, many of the people in my database came to me not as clients of mine, but people who had a need. And again, I was able to refer them to somebody else. And at some point in time, they eventually came back and became clients for many of them because they knew what I did, and they knew how I'd helped 'em, even though it didn't benefit me financially. And, and that's how we've been able to grow it, and I hope it keeps growing.

Right. What else do you do other than just, you know, answering that phone and helping somebody out, somebody out to grow this database or these relationships? Do you do anything proactively?

To build my business?

No. To build these relationships? Like what I mean is like, like, um, let's say, um, like you have all these people, do you touch base with them? Do you send them Christmas cards? Do you, I don't know, I'm just asking do you, do you identify your top people and you meet with them once a year for lunch? I'm just trying to understand what are some of the, the proactive things you do to, to make the most out of these 12,000 or these, you know, these large database of people?

So I absolutely meet with people. I, there's a certain number of people that I try to meet with on a fairly regular basis, some of them in groups. So if I'm part, I try and become a part of different and very specific and targeted associations. And some of them are targeted on interests that I have. Others are targeted on business relationships. And I think it's healthy to have a mixture of both. And then through organizations, I try and stay in contact with as many people as I can. I absolutely send out Christmas cards. I like doing that Christmas cards at Christmas. It's one of my favorite seasons. And in addition to the Christmas cards, I like sending messages as well through social media and even just messages through email. And, and sometimes it's that incidental contact, which seems kind of routine and, and definitely geared towards the masses as opposed to the individual. But that type of contact oftentimes results in, Hey, this has happened to me, or Can we talk for a minute? I'd like to ask you a question. And that oftentimes does turn into business, you know, a friend of mine had this happen to them, or this is what's happening to a relative of mine, or to me personally, I thought that was the kind of thing you do. Can you help me?

Right, right. So you are very proactive about this, um, you know, this, this database and nurturing it and growing it. Um,

Yes, I, I am, it's, you know, it's in, you have to be intentional in life, right? I believe success is intentional. It doesn't happen by default. It happens by design every single time. And so we have to be intentional about relationships, and we have to be intentional about keeping relationships, making them, and keeping them. And if we're not, default will be that we lose them.

Right. Right. Now as you grow and now you have a team that's behind you and that works with you, like, how do you find the right people? How do you make sure they have the right roles? How do you inspire them? How do you lead them?

Great question. Great questions. So I'll be honest with you that it's a process. And I don't know, I, I don't think I've met anybody who was really good at this right from the start. Anybody who I've met who, who is very good at, at building teams and building those relationships usually has a story that starts out, you know, I was never really good at this, but through trial and error, I've learned a few things. And, and one of the things, one of the nuggets I've learned about building a team is there are very few things about law that I can't teach to somebody. There are very few things about the law that I do and the work that I do that I can't teach. The part that the person has to bring is a sense of wanting to be a part of the team. You have to find an individual that can buy into your vision.

And I find that in interviews, many people, well, everybody will present the best side of themselves, but there's a point where you have to sit down and analyze the person in front of you and, and discern whether that person is capable of number one, buying into your vision. And number two, whether they really do or not, and we get better at it over time, and I've made some mistakes. I thought, yep, this is the right person. And then after a little while we, we discover, Nope, I was wrong, <laugh>, this is not the right person. But, you know, that's what probation is for <laugh>, I find that the best people are the ones who may not have all the experience you're looking for on the resume, and they may not have the right courses that you are looking for that you did, or the courses related to the work they're gonna do.

But some key characteristics are people who have spent time in the same workplace for a while because those people will have seen summer, winter, and fall in a workplace. And, and when you've seen a workplace go through winter, you understand character and it builds your character. And people with character and good character are hard to come by. But when you find one, it's like a gem. And I do my best to hold onto them. And I find that if I have one person with character, I can put 10 people around that one person, and the person with character will build a team and can transform the 10 people into people of character. It, it is such a powerful tool and one of the most powerful tools I see in, in the workplace. And so if you can find two people with character, you actually can build a great team around those two people. And that's all it really takes is, you know, two people with, with that character. And when they buy into your vision, then you've got the foundation of an amazing team of people. And so leading really becomes serving those two people and facilitating them and giving them the tools that they need and the structure they need to help you build your vision.

That's excellent. So I wanna kind of pass this. So you said, you know, you want to explain your vision to them and you wanna make sure they buy into it. And then you talked about character. So tell me, like, if I were meeting you for the first time, what would you tell me? Like, would you literally tell me, this is my vision, this is what I'm trying to do?

Well, I would ask questions. I would ask questions about. Okay. So when I, when I interview, I don't necessarily give my vision right away. And I'll, and I'll maybe take it back a bit and give you the reasons why I don't think I, I, I find vision is so important and so dear to me that it's not something that should be wasted on everyone. It's the kind of thing that you share with people who you think are ready for it. So before I share my vision with somebody, I would ask questions of them to try and see if they have vision or what type of vision they see for my business, or the role that they're going to play in my business if they're hired, and, and tease out the idea of, of where they see themselves. And oftentimes people are, are absolutely willing to share with you exactly what they want and what they hope to get.

And still there are a few people who will share with you what they hope to give mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when I find those people, that becomes my focus then, okay, so there's something here that's beyond just you and you see yourself doing something for me. And, and that's really a starting point. And, and if I see that I have a person who I have confidence in over time, and, and I mean maybe over a period of a couple of months or so, I will eventually be able to share a vision, my vision and a little bit at a time, because as I said, vision is precious. And, and you can't waste that on just every and anybody. But when I see somebody who is definitely, you know, someone of character and someone who wants to know what they can sow into my business and give to my business and how they can help my vision, I'm willing to share my vision and, and say, okay, how can we accomplish this? How can I help you to help me in this role?

Right. So help me understand. So you talked about the word character. Can you explain to me what, what you mean by the word character? Like, is there a way we can just put our arms around it and, you know, get a hold of it and understand it?

Sure. When, when I talk about character, I'm talking about things like integrity, honesty, principles, like that, you know, it, I don't mean fluffy things. Like do they smile a lot or do you find the person attractive? The, those things mean very little when it comes to what we do on a daily basis. It, the question is, is this a person of integrity? If they say yes, do they mean yes and do they follow through? And, and that's really it, it's trust and integrity and respect, those types of things, that, that's what I'm talking about when I say character. People who have those values, people who display those values, not because they say it because their actions display it.

Right. You know, I find sometimes, um, the best people are the ones who are trying to serve others. It's not serving me, but serving others, right? In other words, they get joy by helping others, whether it's the customer or whether it's their colleagues or whether it's, uh, you know, the purpose or the mission. They're, they're getting behind. Um, and then there, there are some people, it's all about me, me, me, me, me. You know, what's in it for me? What's in it for me? You know, how's this gonna help me? And unfortunately, uh, I I call it purpose over ego, you know, the more it's about ego, it's about me, me, me, uh, the less it's about the purpose, or it's about serving others. And, um, and if you look at the most successful people in life, um, you know, whether it's Gandhi or you know, bill Gates or, you know, Steve Jobs, most of them were about others. Like, you know, Steve Jobs wanted to make technology easy for the world. You know, bill Gates wanted to put a desktop on every computer so everybody, you know, benefits from a computer. So, um, they're all purpose driven and they all, it's never about them. Of course, they want to be part of the journey. They get so much energy and excitement and happiness, you know, making that happen. But it's always the purpose, always serving others that comes in front. Is that what you mean by character? Or is that something that can

Yes, absolutely. It's a part of it, right? Like your purpose. Do you live a purpose driven life? Yeah, absolutely. That, that forms character. I think you see that in, in somebody. Those who have purpose will certainly have integrity. They will be respectful to anybody else who has a purpose because they know what it is, and they know what it means to an individual. You know, a purpose driven life is, is one of the gems. If you can find someone and harness that person with the purpose driven life and keep them in your organization, you know, there are, there are no real ends to what you can do.

Right. Let me ask you this, you don't have to gimme names or use real names, but can you walk me through an experience of this amazing, you know, person you found with character who joined your team and how things developed and how you helped them, and how they helped, helped, uh, you know, your purpose and your goals. Um, like, I just wanna know, what was this conversation like? You know what, just, I'm, I'm not sure if you remember, but, you know, I just want to kind of, you know, being,

I mean, I still have, I still have employees. I have current employees like that and former employees like that. And I can tell you, you know, the running joke I have with, with one of my former employees is that, you know, I, I realized, and, and it's funny, this, this will give you an idea of the quality of this person's character and determination, will, you know, I hired, I hired a law clerk once who had absolutely no experience as an employment law clerk and absolutely no experience with civil litigation. And, and those two things are generally fatal <laugh> to somebody working with an employment lawyer. And then to top it off, this person didn't know how to touch type,

Didn't know how to touch, didn't know how to type without looking at the keys. And, and so I knew about not having any employment law experience, and I knew about not having any civil litigation experience. I didn't know about the touch typing <laugh>, but I only discovered about the touch typing about, oh, I would say maybe it was more than six months. It was probably a year into her employment. And that's because it didn't matter. The, the way that this, this staff member would work so hard to ensure that my business was taken care of was, was unbelievable. Learning the civil litigation became a pleasure. It was part of what we did. And, and so teaching this person also became a pleasure because I had somebody who was genuinely interested in helping me to build my business and do well. And, you know, I had somebody else, another, and based on that, I hired somebody else who had no employment law training, no civil litigation training, and this time hadn't even been to school for a law clerk.

And my business grew exponentially with this person because once again, we, we talked about what my vision, what is my vision? Where do I see my business? How do I see my business growing? And together, we worked on the plan. We stuck to a plan. Each year I make plans and goals personally and for my business. And at the start of the year, I reveal, okay, this is where we're going with the business. This is what I expect, this is what I'm anticipating, and this is what I'm hoping for. And, and I found that the other skills, like learning about the litigation process, learning about employment law, those things we picked up in a book, we picked up in discussions throughout the day and things like that. But in terms of building my business and building my brand and taking my business to the level it needed to go in that particular timeframe, these people were, were far better head and shoulders above anybody who had the, the book knowledge, because they bought into the vision.

They, they cared. They, they genuinely wanted to see the operation where they work every day do well. And as a part of that, they learned the employment law and civil litigation parts because it made their lives a lot easier. They didn't have to ask me questions all the time, but they also learned and understood my vision and understood how they played a role in it. And they did that role tremendously well because it mattered to them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, you know, and so I look at, you know, could I have hired somebody with the 10 or 15 years experience working in whatever firm, doing everything for somebody just like me in employment law or civil litigation? I could have done that, and I would've maybe been miserable every time I cut the paycheck saying, wow, you know, this person is expensive, but, you know, I guess they do the job well.

But I smiled on payday because it was a pleasure to, to pay my staff the, the work, you know, for the work that they did, because we were building something together. And we still are, you know, with the staff that I have, they've, they've caught the vision and, and they're building and growing it. And, and there comes a point when these types of people will then turn to me and say, Hey, have you thought about this? Maybe we can grow this way. Maybe we can do this type of work, or we can shift and organize ourselves so that we can do this better. And it happens, and it, and it's the most amazing thing because then you don't have to be the only one watching out for the business. There were, there were more people watching out for it. It's, it's really an awesome thing when it happens.

Right? I think, um, I, I know you for a while, Gary, and I know if there's one thing about you is you're a very grateful human being. You're a very appreciative human being. So I do think you play a role in this as well. I think, uh, you notice, uh, good things, you appreciate them and, and you thank them and, and, uh, and think we live in a time and an age where nothing is good enough and we want more and more. And, uh, we don't, um, it's, um, I was talking to some people I know, like, you know, imagine if you were born 200 years ago, you know, uh, you'll be probably working in a farm from six in the morning to, you know, eight at night and you probably will be dead by the time you're 20, 24. You probably never went to school.

Uh, maybe you learned how to read and write best case. And, um, you know, and starting when you're like seven years old, you're probably working like an adult today, right? I mean, we live in this unbelievable time, you know, and you would, you would've been happy just having three meals per day. That would've been like a good day for you, right? <laugh>, and that was a plague or something, and your entire village would've been wiped out. You know? I mean, imagine the time we live in today, right? I mean, it's unbelievable. I mean, we live till we are 80. Our kids go to school till they're 25. You know, it's just crazy. Like, we have devices that connect us to anywhere in the world, in, you know, in milliseconds, we can go anywhere, we can do anything. You know, it's amazing, right? But we don't realize it. You're not grateful for it. You know, it's almost like the guy who who, who has everything but doesn't realize he has everything

That's true. It, it, it seems to be that type of a world right now, right? And perspective is so important, especially at this time, right? Because it hasn't always been like this. And, and in many circumstances, you know, this is our normal, but it's not everybody else's normal everywhere else,

Right?

And, you know, sometimes traveling helps, it helps put things in perspective and helps us to understand how much better we are at, we are at many things, and how much worse we are at many other things, right?

You know,

Spending quality time and, and doing things that are important that matter in life, like being healthy, taking care of ourselves and so forth. I I don't see too many people putting an emphasis on some of those things when they talk about where they wanna be, what they wanna do, and, and so forth in life,

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I was gonna say, um, so the, the people that you, you really found, um, who worked out are the people, you took a chance on them, right? You, you didn't hire the person with all the credentials you took, took a chance on you're

Absolute Yeah, you're absolutely right. I, I took the chance and I said it, and, and I was very open about it in, you know, in the circumstances when I've done that. And I said, you know, this is why I am bringing you here. And it may seem ridiculous to you. And, you know, for the most part, we had to have an understanding, because there has to be a willingness, there had to be a willingness on my part to train, right? 'cause I knew I had people who were coming in from ground zero with, with absolutely nothing. They, they can't look at a textbook from a course they took and say, oh, yeah, that's what this means. They, they just don't have a frame of reference at all. So, you know, there's a training element that you have to recognize and appreciate and not get frustrated with.

But the advantages you get from the other side of having someone who, who clearly buys into your vision or someone who's capable and has vision and, and that character are, you know, the upside is tremendous because there are certain other things that, and the harder things about what we do that you don't have to teach because those types of people will pick it up right away because they, those people look at, at me and they try to understand me, and, and they see, you know, my push points and they understand what makes me frustrated and what makes me happy because they care, and it's the character in them. And, and then they learn what will make me happier and what will bring me joy and make me think this is helpful in the business. And, and then they try and, and do those things. And if they can't do it, oftentimes they try and suggest ways that they can be done. And that is really what makes this relationship so fruitful. And it makes that employer employment employee relationship so productive,

Right?

Because they've taken the time. It's not just one way where, where I become a, a micromanager and try to say, okay, well try and make sure you type this many words a minute, or make sure that you do x number of letters every hour. It's not about that. It's, it's looking at the broad picture, the bigger picture and saying, okay, what are the tasks? Who can do what? How can we get this done the most efficient way? And, and how are we gonna help the client as best we can?

Right? So what I'm hearing you is, it's the same thing, gratitude, right? You, you took a chance on them, you believed in them, and they didn't wanna disappoint you. They went above and beyond for you, just like you, you, you, I mean, um, in reciprocity it says the person who gives the first gift or does the first favor, just like you do with all your referrals, usually gets three times back. Because the people who get that favor without them doing a favor for you, feel that much more grateful for you. So again, you are kind of living by, you know, the, the, your faith, but, and doing what you think is the right thing, but I, it pays back. And the other thing I'm noticing, and maybe this is a coincidence, maybe not, but those young people who don't have that 20 years of experience are like a blank slate. So you don't have to raise a lot of the, the things that may have worked, you know, 10 years ago or five years ago, or in a different environment. You can just start writing because it's a blank slate. You can start writing whatever that makes sense for you or vision, whatever that makes sense for you. Um, the other thing, go ahead.

That, no, that's, that's absolutely true. And, and I can say from experience I've had the, the younger person who, who is closer to coming out of school, who, who, who I just take on. And I've had the person who's maybe in a second or third career. And, and again, both decisions were made based on character and not on, did you take the right course? Have you done 10 years of experience doing what I do? And, and I found in both scenarios, whether it was the, the one who was more closer to being fresh outta school, or the other one who was seasoned in two or three different careers previously, it bo it worked the same way with both. It, it was just a character. It was that, it was that part of them that, that I was able to see and, and they wanted so badly to, to do well. And they did. And, you know, I sewed into them, as you've said. I didn't see it that way before, but I guess so I did, I took a chance on them, and I reaped a harvest. They sewed back into me, into my business.

Right.

And it's still a great relationship with all of them.

Right. Um, any, any advice on how do you stay engaged with your team? I, I think it looks like you don't tell people what to do. You listen to them, you take their input. You, you, you don't like say, oh, you know, shut up and do whatever. I tell you, you are the kind of person who, who, who gets people involved, who respects people, um, who gives people freedom. I try to, to kind of, you know, make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons and

<laugh>. Yeah, I, I try to, I'm not always good at it. I don't always hit the mark, but I try to listen and I try to, to hear people's perspectives because I do things the way I do them because somebody taught me and I saw somebody else doing it this way. And there's some things that I may have learned on my own, but I recognize that there is oftentimes a better way to do things. And sometimes the better way comes from the least likely sources. So if we try and be open and listen to the sources around us, and especially those who care, sometimes we can find little nuggets there. So, you know, the way I stay connected and the way I I try and encourage my team is I meet once a week with my team. We have one formal meeting every single week, and we go through different files and, and we go through all of our tasks, and we set out our tasks for the week based on the, the files that we have and the activities going on.

And sometimes as well, that time can be used just sometimes for sharing. It doesn't have to be, you know, two hours out of your day. And so we're not inefficient, but if we get through our files quickly, then sometimes, you know, we have a few minutes and chat about, Hey, how was your weekend? Or what happened at this event or that event. And, and it's that time of, of sharing and letting people know that what they're doing matters and, and that, you know, we can actually sit down for a few minutes and talk about something that matters to people other than our files. And I think that helps, that helps to build the bond. And, and that's time that we cherish and time that I think is, is really quality time as a group. And then if there are concerns that anybody has, we can raise them, and all of us as a team hear them. And sometimes we can brainstorm on how to fix them, and we can come up with solutions. And if we don't hit the mark the first time, there's always another meeting and we can hit it the next time and try and come up with different solutions until we've solved a problem. And, and doing it that way, I find that the whole team buys into it a lot easier than when it becomes, uh, an a directive or an order or, or an email that says, from henceforth, we shall do the following in the following way.

Right.

I find it's, it's better and, and people will buy into it more if they're part of that solution and part of the process,

Right? And you look, it looks like you are, do you adjust your techniques and your strategies? Like, in other words, or do you kind of like, uh, because a lot of times, especially in marketing, for example, right? You don't know what's gonna work and you have to do a lot of tweaks along the way. Um, now I'm not sure if that's true on the, when it comes to the day-to-day operations of, you know, running an optimal law practice.

Absolutely, absolutely. For example, you know, we could get a certain type of file or certain type of assignment one morning or one afternoon that completely shifts the next two months of our work. And so we have to be very flexible about the type of work we do, how we do it. And, and it's one of the reasons why the communication has to be good between us as a team. The other reason, you know, yet another reason why we meet once a week and talk about what we're doing. Because at any given time, we may have to shift our priorities and shift the people who are looking on different types of matters and different types of files. And so having the flexibility to do it, because everybody is up to speed on what's happening with most files, even if they're not directly working on it, everybody is generally up to speed. That's helpful. Definitely helpful.

Right. Let's talk about marketing, because even though you have this massive database, I mean, I know you're one of the lawyers who is most engaged and most interested in marketing, and you are constantly learning and constantly, you know, upping your game. Um, how would you define marketing? Like in your own words, what is marketing?

Wow, great question. <laugh>, you're asking me to talk about your world, <laugh>. So from my perspective, marketing to me is the method by which I let my target market know that I'm available to serve them. I think that's, that's really it,

Right? No, absolutely. So it's about

In the simplest, sorry, go ahead.

No, I mean, yeah, it's about, like you said, getting people, you who can benefit from your services to know that you are here. Second, help them choose you, I think, right? You know, just because they know you today, people have choices. Why should they choose you as opposed to somebody else? And then finally they have to trust you enough to, you know, listen to you and, uh, work with you as opposed to second guess you and, you know, micromanage you.

Absolutely. I, I completely agree. And it's, you know, it's exciting. Sometimes I, I get almost as excited as you do about some of the marketing strategies and the things that are happening. I enjoy it. You know, sometimes you're, it's hard work sometimes as well, because if, you know, you have to write or if you have to present different things, it's, you know, we have to think about things and it's thinking about things that I don't think about every day. So it challenges me to, to even look at myself and what I do and, and how I do it and, and think hard about some of those uncomfortable things, you know, what can I do better? What should I do better? How should I be doing some things? But generally speaking, I like it. And I, I've seen the positive effects it has on my business.

I, I say to every single member that joins my business, the house of law that you need to do marketing, you absolutely need to do marketing. You know, there was a day and an age when lawyers would say, I don't have to market because I get referrals from others, and my reputation is such that people come to see me. And there was a time when that was popular, and that was great, and that was neat. And I remember speaking to one colleague after we had fought a, a very hard fought trial. He was much older than I was. He'd been practicing for, you know, 30 something years. And the one thing he said to me was, you know, after a while, you know, you have the people that keep referring you business and so forth, but then they stop, some of them retire, some of them die.

And all of a sudden the business that you thought you had and you thought you'd built up has dwindled, and you're searching high and low for files. And that interaction taught me a lesson, taught me a very important lesson on sustainability of a business and, and the importance of marketing and, and marketing can't be one strategy that you did in 2010 that you still continue to do in 2018. It changes it's fluid just as we are fluid and our worlds change and technology changes and the things that influence us change. And, and so I've learned through experiences like that one, and also from dealing with you, that marketing is probably one of the most important components of my business,

Right? And I think, um, the point you made is really true. I mean, um, I mean, you talked about intentionality, right? So marketing is just, again, being intentional, you know, it's like, um, doing something about who knows about you, who picks you and who trusts you, as opposed to letting it up to chance and hoping and praying that somehow you're gonna get lucky every day for the rest of your life, you know? Um, or that, yeah. And I think, um, have things changed? Uh, I mean, in your mind, like for example, you know, I'll use a simple example. Um, you know, 20 years ago a friend had a birthday, you would call your friend, or your mom had a birthday, you would call your mom, right? And we'd say, Hey, happy birthday, and maybe even, uh, you know, go and see them and so forth.

But now, even for your own mom, a lot of people are wishing their moms on Facebook, and, uh, they don't even have to remember it. Facebook would remind them, this person is having a birthday. And, uh, so <laugh>, right? We talk about word of mouth and referrals and you know, clients telling clients and so forth. But do you see that happening in a different way today? What I mean by a different way is let's say you are an employment attorney who works with, um, you know, works with, um, clients, uh, on, you know, terminations for example. So you write an article about that, about some change in the law. Now I see it, I know my friend is going through a tough time. I could forward that article to my friend or like it on Facebook and my friend sees it without even me forwarding it.

Um, do you think, like one of the things I, I notice is that a lot of people, there's a great thing, right? I mean, mean somebody goes to God and says, Hey, how come I'm not getting lucky? I'm, you know, and so forth. And God says, did you buy a lottery ticket? He's like, oh, I never did. So in other words, luck has to be created. Luck has to be, you know, you have to work towards it. So if you don't make it easy for your clients to talk about you, you know, on Facebook or through an email or, you know, like, you know, sometimes instead of writing this huge long article, maybe it could be an infographic, you know, with three pictures, because that's easier to understand. Or it could be a video interview of you explaining something, which is kind of fun as opposed to reading this five page article. So, um, I don't know, like you student of marketing, you're absolutely, I I, go ahead.

Yeah, no, I've seen it. It's changed quite a bit. It has changed quite a bit. I, you know, in the 18 years that I've been practicing, I remember when I started, nobody had a website, and the internet was something interesting that it startups would talk about. And, and then it became the case. I remember when I got the first, my first website, and it was a cause of friction and confusion and turmoil in my firm, because our firm had a website and it was pathetic and nobody really wanted to invest in changing it. And I still remember, you know, somebody had said, well, it costs about $5,000 to $10,000 to, to build up the website and make it relevant. And, and people screamed about it like it was a million bucks, right? <laugh>, and this is, you know, it was a firm with, you know, maybe about, I don't know, there were about 42 actually human beings in that firm.

And there were screaming about five to $10,000 for a website. And so I got my own, and it was crazy, and it was mayhem and it caused all kinds of division, and, and people didn't understand it. And, you know, and all of a sudden today, you know, I've got videos on the internet and I've got, you know, a website and I've got, you know, all kinds of interactive tools and things and, and articles, you know, I've started writing and things like that. And, and this is all in the name of building a business and, you know, making a brand known and marketing and, and it's a very different thing. Gone are the days when, you know, when a couple of people know you and send you work, you can build a business on that. These are the days when, you know, it's great when people know you and, and they like you, but the people that sometimes speak the loudest are the ones who weren't happy with you.

And, and those ones find the resources and the time to try and make everybody know that they weren't happy about you. And it's a very different time. If somebody wasn't happy about your work, you know, 15 years ago they told two friends, and maybe those friends cared, and maybe they didn't, and it stopped there. Now, you know, everything's available with all the social media, and there, there are so many different ways that your name could be made great, or your name could, you know, be not made great. And, and I don't know if, if the legal profession has even harnessed it or tried to harness it properly. And, and that's something that I think a lot of lawyers and law firms need to consider. So when I got my website, yes, it was a cause the friction, and, and it made people say, oh my goodness, how could you have your own website? And our law firm has a different website, whereas today, you know, website, it may be the starting point or it may not even be enough, you know, and, and marketing has changed so much such that we, we have to do even more to be able to reach people and give them that confidence and trust in us.

Right? Right. So we talked about people, we talked about marketing, we talked about, um, you know, building that database. Anything else we missed that you felt were critical for us success?

You know, I, I have to say quite candidly, and, and quite honestly, the, the strategies I, I've tried to do everything that your team has told me to do, <laugh>, and I think I mentioned this to you on more than one occasion. I, I simply said, you guys know what you're doing. I see how you've done it before for others. And when building my business, I, I dedicated time. I treated this like a file. And I said, you know, when I get a phone call or an email from RA's team, deal with it, like one of the files on my list, if I've gotta write an article, I write an article. If I've gotta review some website designs, I review website designs, but I try and do exactly what this client asks me to do. And I know that if I follow the steps, then there's success waiting at the other end.

And, and that's literally what I've done. And so I've found myself writing articles and, and, you know, I've, I've met much of your team, I think many of the people on your team, and we have, we have a good laugh maybe once a week or once every two weeks as we develop different tools and so forth. And, and I think that's one of the keys as well, is just being able to have that positive relationship with the people who are doing your marketing. It's, it's key, it's important. And knowing that they understand me and that they care about what I think, and it matters to them that I'm happy with what they're doing, those are some key elements for me. And I think they should be key elements for anybody else.

Right. So what you're saying is that in addition to having your own team that's under your roof, you will end up having teams like the marketing team where you need to treat them and work with them just like you would treat and work with your best people because they are critical to your success.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It's not an internal team, it's an external team, but, but your team is creating my image and, and maintaining my image. And so we have to be on the same page, and we have to have communication. And, and I see that, I see that in the way that my, my business is growing. I see it in the way that your team, you know, now understand some of the nuances about me and how I like things and how I like things set up, and, and I'm learning about their expertise and learning when to defer to them to make sure that things happen the way I want them to in the timeframes that I want them to happen. And it's a, it's a growing relationship, but it's, it's a very profitable one, and I'm thankful for it.

Thank you very much for that. And, um, I do notice something about my best clients, and you are one of my most successful clients, is that, um, there are three attributes I notice. One is, um, um, they are, they, they have a growth mindset. Uh, you know, they're always looking at, uh, you know, they, when they see a glove house empty, they see half full. Instead of saying, who do I blame? They think about, who do I thank for the half full part? And then the, the next question is, okay, how do we make it the rest of the way full, right? So when you're happy and in a positive mindset, you tend to come up with good ideas. So of course, when you're working with teams, whether it's inside your walls or outside of your walls, you know, when you start with that positive mindset, that growth mindset, it creates that positive environment.

And other thing I noticed about you, and I, I heard this from a lot of my team, uh, team members, is that you're very appreciative. You're very thankful. So yes, doesn't mean that you don't criticize or you don't say, Hey, you could have run a better job. You do. But when they do, do do a good job, you will say, good job. Thank you. And, uh, when you're dealing with human beings, nothing motivates them. Not money, not gifts, not other things as well as, as much as a genuine appreciation, a genuine thank you. Um, the last thing you mentioned, which I think is what trips up a lot of people is, and you have, you are good at this, is that, you know, um, some people think they have to know everything. They have to be the best at everything. So they don't like to listen to people just because they think, oh, I, I, I know it, I know this, I know that, right?

I read this article and oh yeah, I need to do this. So I read that, watched that video, and now we should do that. And I think you have that sense of humility. You know, when what you know, and you know what you don't know. And when you don't know something, you become a good student. Um, you're not a blind student. You don't just close your eyes and follow stuff, but you are an engaged student. You're a student who asks questions, who learns. But you tend to, I mean, I don't know. I find the most successful business owners, whether it's law practice or doctors or whatever else, they are great students. They're, they know how to work with others. They take the time to pick the people they work with. It's almost like a marriage. They don't get married to the first person they see.

Uh, so they do take the time, but once they do take the time, you know, they try to grow that relationship. They try to, like you said, you treat this as important as a client who's paying you money, this relationship. Right. Instead of, you know, bullying people and beating them up and, you know, just going round and round because you are the boss, because you're the one writing the check. You treat them with respect. You listen when you have to. You learn when you have to. You do what needs to be done, when you have to. Right. So, um, and I really think, wow, that separates, you know, the most successful people in life and business from the rest. I mean, they are successful, but they tend to have that humility about them. They tend to say, Hey, I don't know it all. I'm not, you know, the master of it all. So

<laugh>. Wow. Thank you. That's wow. That, that's extremely kind of you and I appreciate it. I, I truly do.

Yeah. And, um, yeah, I, I think, I think that's one of the reasons you're very successful. Like, you are so good at working with people and you know, um, listening to listening when you have to and talking when you need to. So, um, that's, that's wonderful. Um, I do appreciate that. Um, so can we say that one of the attri, one of the attributes of, uh, one of the key lessons or key secrets of success is great teamwork with, uh, both outside partners as well as clients, as well as attorneys, as well as people inside your team?

Yeah, absolutely. So I, I've told people this before, you know, when we characterize ourselves with the law society, oftentimes we're told we have to characterize ourselves as a sole proprietorship, which is not really true because all my staff know this is not a one person business. This is, this is teamwork. And if I don't have a law clerk, if I don't have a paralegal, if I don't have another associate or a couple of clerks, I'm not going to be able to do the work that I need to do with the quality that I need to do it with. And it's the same inside and outside. It's teamwork. And none of us is an island and none of us knows everything. And some of us will be better at some things than others, and we'll learn from each other, but we're certainly gonna rely on the strengths of those who know some things better than we do.

Right. And that self-awareness, right. Um, of knowing what to do at each moment and that, um, self-awareness to, you know, a lot of people I think are not very self-aware. So, you know, so what hurts them more than anything else is themselves and the people who are continually growing, they're very self-aware.

Yeah. I try to be, I, I try to grow. I never want to be capped. I always want to be growing and, and striving and pursuing my purpose and, and different interests. And, and so, you know, sometimes that means taking information and, and learning from others because I've got certain gifts, others have different gifts, and if I can learn and, and understand their gifts, it'll make me better.

Right. I really appreciate the time. Gary, anything you wanna add before we wrap up?

You know what, I would just like to say thank you. No, thank you so much for the opportunity to chat with you and to share some ideas and, and just talk about, you know, this, this amazing profession that I'm blessed to be in. I appreciate that. I always appreciate chatting with you. I learn about five new nuggets every time that you and I speak. You may not know it, but I write them down as we talk and I'm so appreciative for the time that, that we can spend. I know your time is precious, but I really do enjoy this and I just want to thank you for the opportunity and I really think this is a great idea and I know it's gonna do well.

Thank you very much, Gary. I think this is awesome and I really appreciate it. And we already have had quite a few people listen to your first podcast and, uh, so, um, thank you very much. I think, um, I really appreciate what you do to help others, not just your clients, uh, but also your colleagues and, um, and, um, and the wider world at large. So thanks a lot, Carrie, for taking the time. If you don't mind, we will include your website and your contact information, so if any attorney wants to talk to you about, you know, their practice or, you know, collaborate with you, hopefully they can reach out to you.

Absolutely. That's what I'm here for. And please feel free to do so.

Thank you very much. Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. You're listening to Gary Bennett, um, an employment lawyer here in Mississauga, who has been in practice for, you know, more than 18 years, and who has learned a lot, and I hope, uh, you learned, uh, from his experience and knowledge. If you like this show, please, uh, write a comment for us on iTunes, uh, and or share it with your friends. Of course, uh, you can access this podcast also by visiting dominate law.com. Thank you very much.

Thank you for listening to Dominate Law podcast series, brought to you by Dominate Law Marketing. For more information, please visit our website@www.dominatelaw.com. If you like our podcast, rate us or leave us a review on Facebook, please subscribe via Stitcher or iTunes, and also find us on Instagram and Twitter.