The purpose & impacts of being a divorce lawyer with Kelly Chang Rickert

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is the place where lawyers in private practice come to learn about how to create a bigger future, a bigger future for themselves, their clients, their team members, and the world at large. How do they do that? They work on time, money, purpose, or relationships. And this is Naraine. I'm the host. I'm also the founder of a marketing firm that helps lawyers grow their practice with digital marketing. Today I'm super excited to have as our guest, Kelly Chang. Rickard Kelly is the founder of Law and Mediation offices of Kelly Chang. You're gonna love this podcast. This is gonna be so different from many of the podcasts I've done before. Kelly is somebody who is super passionate about, even though she's a family lawyer, and you would think they're in the business of separating people, she's super passionate about doing just the opposite, helping people work through this difficult part of their life and create better outcomes for themselves, and more importantly, for their kids. Kelly has been frequently quoted in the media as a legal expert for many channels, including CBSA, B-C-C-N-N News, entertainment to tonight and Hollywood Life on famous custody ca cases such as Bravo and the Kardashians. In addition to all that, she has been continuously awarded the super lawyer from the year 2006 each year until today. Kelly, it's a great pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

So you have been practicing law for a long time and you love what you do. So you, you started practicing in 2000, correct?

Yes.

So for our listeners, why don't you just maybe take a minute or two to just tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you, where are you coming from? What got you into law?

Okay, so I am a divorce lawyer. Let's just get that out of the way. Um, I've been practicing since 2000. Um, I grew up, I was born in Taiwan, so English was actually not my native language. And the culture, the American culture is not my native culture. Um, nevertheless, I came here and got a law degree and now I'm practicing on my own. Um, when I started my practice, I didn't realize how much I would love family law or be drawn to, you know, the people. And, uh, I guess my purpose. So as soon as I started my firm, I decided to focus on family law. And, uh, I studied for the certified exam and became a certified family law specialist. And so I guess that's pretty much my background. I've been handling exclusively family law cases, which involves anything from the prenup all the way to the dissolution, um, for the last 18 plus years.

That's amazing. So you have 18 years of thinking about this topic. So let me cut to the chase. What's your purpose? I, I know, I mean, like, there's some people I talk to, I get the feeling even if you don't pay them a dime, they'll still do it all day long. They just love what they do. So how,

I don't think I would go there <laugh> <laugh> if I wasn't getting paid. I don't think I would, I don't think anybody would do their job if they weren't getting paid. I mean, there are bills to pay, right? But, um, realistically, I do think that I am fit for my job because I do think the purpose of my life and of my role as somebody's family lawyer is to get them to a better ground. So, you know, clearly they're separating and the law, you have to deal with that, you know, so the law is one part of separation, but on top of that, there's the emotional separation, um, the mental separation and the physical separation. So, you know, there's all that stuff, and I'm just dealing with their legal separation. But a lot of times it runs into all that emotional, mental, and, you know, stuff. And I find that I'm pretty good at that stuff, only because I think I truly care and, you know, be it good or bad. I do take home a lot of stress from my work. Um, I ask my husband how much he loves my job. He'll tell you he hates it because I'm involved like 24 7. But, uh, other than that, you know, I guess my purpose is to just help people, uh, recover from the shambles of their life and put them on a new road to a new life.

Right? That's a elegant way to put it. So they're in a tough situation. Of course. It is what it is. They are here. You try to help them navigate it and create as best of outcomes as they possibly can for the kids, for the, the two parties and so forth.

Yes, and I will say, like a lot of people that come to me for initial consultations, they, um, some of them aren't sure, you know, a lot of them have had a lot of conflict at home and it's been eating at them, and they just wanna know if they separate what would happen, you know? So I would take 'em through step by step. And that does involve a lot of, like legal counseling as well as, uh, you know, therapy. <laugh> and I have actually talked a lot more people out of getting a divorce than like, going forward with it. I have never talked a a somebody who's unsure into getting a divorce, because I think that's just plain wrong. Right? Um, if you're unsure, your job is to go to counseling. It is not a divorce lawyer's job to tell you if you should get a divorce.

In fact, it's a divorce lawyer's job, if at all possible to save your marriage. Because if your marriage is crap, your divorce is gonna be even crappier. Right? Okay. So it pays to get to a healing point if you have to separate, get to a respectable point. Um, one of the things I never do is I never serve people who aren't knowing that they're getting divorce papers. You know, I, I've heard of attorneys out of the blue. They're, you know, they represent a client and they haven't even talked to their spouse about the divorce, but they'll send out a process server to serve 'em with papers. Do you know how rude that is? I know it's just plain, despicable. Can you imagine if your wife never even told you about the divorce, and then you come home from one day and there's a stranger at your door going, here goes, sir, you've been served and you look at it and it's a petition for divorce. I mean, how would you feel? Right. Right. Terrible. So I, I always, that's the first thing I always say. I'm like, I'm, you know, does your spouse know you know that you're here? You know, so that's usually what I, I mean, it's common sense <laugh>. Yeah. But a lot of people in this area of law, I, I don't know, maybe they don't do it often or maybe they just don't care, or they don't know how to navigate a, a situation. They just don't do it. And it's just common sense. Just give each other some courtesy.

Right. Lemme ask you this. Let's, let's get the elephant in the room out of the way. Why do people who decided to, you know, love each other, who decided to get married, have kids together and make a life together, come to a point where they hate each other so much that they do these crazy things? Like what, I mean, you have talked why hundreds of people, right? Just, just what, what is your take on, you know, take on what happens? Like, I'm not saying people shouldn't get divorced, right? It happens, but the question is the hatred and the emotion and all that stuff. Why do you think it gets to that point?

It's so funny. I, I remember I wrote a blog about this, but I, I actually related relationships to like quantum theory. So I think there's a theory of relativity that says like, all things, all organized things in their natural state is chaos. Okay. So I think it's very natural for people that are joined by law to just naturally fall apart, because that's the theory of relativity. Okay? Like, you have a clean house. The nature of cleanliness is just to be chaotic. So it's the same thing with marriage, like after a few years, sometimes after a few months, you just fall apart. You know, it's just the nature, uh, you know, because I don't think humans are supposed to be monogamous. Okay. However, that being said, I think when you make those vows, and this is why we put emphasis on the marital vows, when you, you know, you choose to make a decision and you, you're supposed to stay with it.

And I think the reason a lot of marriages are falling apart, I used to hear it's one outta two, by the way, but now I think it's two out of three marriages fall apart. But I think the reason that marriages fall apart these days is because of how fast everything's going. Everything is instant. It's instant, it's instant. And they don't, A good marriage is not instant. It takes years of building and rebuilding, building and rebuilding. So, I don't know, I don't know what the answer to that is, but I think the natural, you know, it's natural for a a to at some point in their relationship want to separate, right? So I think that's, you know, that's what we're just dealing with human nature. And now with like Tinder and Match where you can, there's just so many options out there mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you just swipe right, sweep right, left, you know, it's just hard. Relationships are falling apart every day.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm just, uh, assuming like when you are in love and you know into each other, everything they do looks good to you. Right? Like, you are, like, even when they do a mistake, you forgive, you don't even notice it. But then somewhere along the long, along the line, it flips. Now even the tiniest things becomes bigger and bigger, and you respond to that, your story about how betrayed or whatever dot, dot.you feel now they respond and it goes back and forth, back and forth, and just like you went on the opposite direction to get married, now you start going on the other direction.

Yeah, exactly. And now everything that they do is such a fault and it's so pronounced that you can't look away. Right. And that's where I think communication skills really help. You know, it takes courage to step up and you gotta dedicate yourself because natural, if you know, it's your, it's your natural tendency to withdraw, you know? And people, their marriages are suffering or whatever, they withdraw. And what happens is, you know, a member of the opposite, somebody else comes along and it's just so easy to, you know, go away. Yeah. But the truth is, cheating is usually a symptom, you know? It is not the reason that marriages end. It's just some, the marriage was already in trouble, and then cheating is like the final straw.

Right.

Right. You know what I mean? Like, happy married couples don't cheat.

Exactly. They just

Don't.

Exactly. Absolutely. It's, um, yeah. I know a friend of mine, a good friend of mine, you know, he's a heart surgeon, amazing life, amazing kids, boom falls apart. And when you look at it from the outside, they're perfect. You know, Halloween party pictures and all these Facebook things, it's like, wow, how lucky is the family? Anyways,

I know that's what bothers me most about Facebook. Those happy couples that post those photos, they're usually the ones in trouble. Right? I mean, <laugh>, it's like, don't post. It's such a private thing and people are posting like couples kissing and you know, this is our perfect life. But the truth is Facebook is fake. Yeah. I like to call it fake obligatory

Though, because we put our, the people who are really broken are the ones who show this beautiful life pictures all over the, you know, Facebook. I, I don't, I don't wanna generalize, but I'm just saying I see a lot of that, the people who are really content, you don't see too many pictures.

No. Because they have a life <laugh>. Exactly. It's the people that don't have a life. Although I tend to post a lot on Facebook too. It's, it's, sometimes it varies. Sometimes I have the time, I'll do it, other times I'm busy, so I don't do it.

Right. Uh, let's, let's kind of, uh, jump, jump in. So, so really you said when you're dealing with a case like this, you made a comment when you and I were talking that if they hate each other so much, you might even say, I'm not the right lawyer for you. So help me understand where you're coming from. Like,

I just, for me, you gotta be at a point where you can handle the divorce. Okay. And it's issues. Um, the truth is, when you're hiring a divorce lawyer, you're paying per hour. Okay. So if you have like 20 hours of venom that's gonna eat away at your 10, 20 hours at $500 an hour is $10,000. And people are like, why are you so expensive? It's like, no, you are expensive because you are driving up the fees. Right. You know, there's only certain things that lawyers can do. Sometimes they're too polite to cut you off. Um, you know, so when somebody calls and raves about their Pokemon and their ex stole it or something like that, it's like, sometimes you wanna cut them off, but, you know, it's like they called you and you're not supposed to, so you just bill for your time because that's time that's taken away from the other

Cases.

Right. Cases. But yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know why people do what they do. I know they're in a bad spot. And I think for me, I, most of my clients, um, are emotionally in check, so I don't have to spend the extra time and money. Um, got it.

Got

It. Yeah. And this is a good point. Like, I don't handle domestic violence restraining orders. Um, that's in the state of California. A lot of people use restraining orders to get a leg up in custody, okay? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I haven't done a restraining order since 2008.

Wow.

Yeah. Uh, in my experience, dvs are extremely high emotional, volatile cases. And of all those stories that hear you hear in the news with the spouses that kill their children and kill each other or whatever, they're all dvs are in all of them. And I just do not handle those cases. Right. I refuse.

You don't want to have that mess up your personal life. I mean, I can imagine the emotions and

All. Yeah. It's not worth it to me. Yeah, exactly. I mean, just no amount of money, 500,000, a million dollars, no amount of money is worth that kind of toxicity and danger in your life.

So you, you, you really, I mean, you're saying the good case is they at least have come to peace with this and they're willing to do the right thing, or willing to make the best of the situation for the kids and and each other. And those are your

Yeah. I mean, I don't, not all of them have come to peace. Divorce is a shocking event. It's, it's horrifying. You know, I've read somewhere that it ranks above death in terms of like, dealing with it. So I wouldn't say that all my clients have already like, silently accepted it. Um, but all my clients are in check, you know, it's like sometimes I have to hold their hands step by step. But, you know, typical client of mine is not gonna have an emotional outburst.

Let's pretend like, like

Run to court.

You and I are having, you and I are having a conversation. Right. Uh, a client conversation. How would you, how does it look like, I mean, can you give us like maybe buckets of different clients you work with and how do you kind of get them in the right frame of mind? I don't know. I'm just wondering because, uh, I'm sure there are a lot of other family lawyers listening to this, so I'm sure they would learn how you, how do you kind of Sure.

Go ahead. So I usually, you know, I introduce when they come in for a paid consult, I usually introduce myself and then ask them, you know, what's going on, please talk to me. And then I ask if their spouse knows where they are, you know, and have they reached any temporary agreements or any agreements regarding the separation. Um, and you know, I'll have some clients who are like, no, he doesn't know. We just had a fight. He said he was getting a divorce. And, you know, it's very like threatening and preemptory. And then I have like the middle of clients who are like, yeah, we've temporarily talked about it. We have kids and we've decided that the kids are gonna stay in this school and blah us. So that's like the middle, you know, they're in the middle of that process. And then I have some clients that are like, at the end of the spectrum, which is like, the divorce should have happened.

So it's like, oh yeah, we separated like 10 years ago. We divided up everything, but we just not never got around to the paperwork. So I would say, like, for me, along that spectrum, most of my clients are in that middle ground where it's like, yes, we have talked about it. It's not just the threat and, uh, here's what our preliminary agreements are and here's my concerns. And then, you know, that's my chance. That is where the family lawyer comes in and has that chance to either be a solution or be part of the problem. You know? And that's, that's just, it's so delicate, our job and those people that are at the beginning of the spectrum where they're like, oh, I'm not, I'm not sure. He doesn't know. We just had this huge fight. Those are the people that I talk back, you know, I talk, I say, you go back and you work on that marriage. Okay. It's like these things. Sometimes I'll share my own personal experiences, you know?

Right. Said,

And a lot of them have emailed me and later and said, you know, I, I took your advice and our marriage is so good right now, thank you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I'm like, you're welcome <laugh>, you paid for. So,

Right, right. Um,

But that being said, um, I have to do mention this point. I do get a lot of random emails. I think on an average day I get about 300 emails, like combined from Facebook and Yelp and a lot of different social media. Like, people just randomly email me and they'll be like, oh, I want a dv, I wanna blow it. Like, they just, I don't know why they email me because first of all, I rarely see those emails. And second of all, if I read like a 15 page email, I'm probably not gonna respond. 'cause it's very strange to get a 15 page email complaining about your spouse to a total stranger, <laugh>, you know? Right. So <laugh>. So anyway, that's, that's, this is a good point to where I can interject to family lawyers that you should always charge for your time because our area of law is so special that a lot of times we do get complainers. Like, we get people that just want to consume our day with sp stories about their spouse. And that is not a productive use of your time. Right. So please always charge for your time. We only have eight hours a day. Um, I do not give free consults. I do not respond to emails for free.

That's perfect. That's good advice.

No freebies not here.

Right. Right. How do you do that? Do you just have a screening system? Like there's a person who goes through these emails and communicates back and saying, okay, here is the way it works. This is the fee schedule. You like it set up a meeting and

So forth. We don't screen emails. I emails go into a spam box, like I have a private email address, and then there's one that's on my website that I don't check that box. It's, I think it's like full, but I don't, and then like for Facebook requests or Yelp, I don't really respond to those either. And I don't have staff that if my staff does go through it, um, they will just send like a general email, please call the office. And then when people call, we have a call screening process, they have to complete a three page intake form and you know, they, they have to send it back. And pretty much they pay before I even talk to them or waste any time on it.

Right. And that keeps a lot of the people who are sharing stories out.

Exactly. And not that their, their stories don't deserve to be heard. I think everybody, uh, should share their story, but I think maybe you should share that with your friend or something, you know? Right, right. Not like a professional law office. Right. So I, that's, that's where you have to draw a line. I think a lot of family lawyers give out freebies. It's like their time is candy or something. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, you know, I talk often to family lawyers that are on the verge of bankruptcy and they're like, I gave eight consults yesterday. I didn't make any money <laugh>. Or they'll be like, I gave eight consults and one of them gave me a one story Yelp review,

<laugh>,

You know, I'm like, well, you know, the more people you talk to, the more likely they're gonna give you a bad Yelp review because you're gonna get exhausted by consult number three. And you, you know, right. They're taking up your time and they're bitching about their spouse and Right. Can I say bitch on the air <laugh> anyways, they just <laugh>, you know what I mean? Yes. Just like, oh, you cheated on me. She's such a spender. Oh, you know, her mother is such a bitch. And I'm, I'm like, I I know. I get it. I'm, I'm sorry, but I've been in family lawyer for 18 years and I've heard your story maybe 20,000 times by 8:00 AM this morning.

Right.

You know, um, I don't mean to to sound very, uh, callous, but it's true. I've heard every single story in the book. There is no story I haven't heard.

And now let's talk about children, because you are a mom. You have, like you said, marriage is not easy. We all have to work at it and rework at it and rebuild it and put a lot of effort. So you, you know, what these people are going through. On a personal level, what do you think happens? What do you think the parents, I mean the, the couples are blind to when they go through this. So, and uh, and, and, uh, I don't know. I guess because I, I met adults who, who had parents who were divorced and every single one of them blamed themselves for the next 50 years of their lives, what happened? And they take it very personally

That I think being a parent is a very difficult job. And I think when you're going through a divorce, you do feel extremely alone because you, it affects the way you parent. You know? So I think when you are very angry with your spouse and you have to raise a child and you have to put on a happy face when you're in front of the child, it, it just, it's really hard. It really rips these people apart, um, especially for the ones that are really trying to be a good parent and not involved with their children. Um, so I think when you're put into that situation, at some point you kind of break mentally and you start blaming the other spouse for putting you into this delicate situation. So I, I mean, I don't know. I think psychologically it's very, very tough to handle and mm-hmm <affirmative>.

So you're saying we, we have, we are like in the revenge mode, you know, and we, we miss the big picture. We miss the important things, child relationship, you know, even their own selves. Right. You know what's good for them emotionally.

That's exactly right. And I think they reach that breaking point and then they take it to court and nobody wins in court. Nobody.

Right. Because you're having a stranger decide what's best for you and your life and your kids' life.

Yep. And most often you, I mean, I've had so many clients come to me and they're like, you know, maybe they're going through their second divorce with me, but they'll be like, oh, and my first divorce spent over $200,000 and the outcome was exactly the same. I'm like the same. He is like, yeah. The same as what we had initially sat down and agreed to <laugh>. So it's like most couples, they'll, they'll negotiate something and then they'll each hire their respective lawyers who then like muck it up because it's like, well, suddenly I want more. You know? So I don't know. I, I think, I think if you have children, you owe it to your children to sit down and work out things amongst yourself. And you have to be reasonable. You know, I've had unreasonable, you know, for illustration purposes, we'll just say mom or dad, but I've had unreasonable dads that clearly cannot have their children 50 50 because of their travel schedule. But they will go into court and fight for 50 50 and it's like, you don't, you can't see them. You're out of town 10 months of the year. But they will do it because they're so unreasonable. And then I've had moms who like want a hundred percent of the time and it's like, you know, the dad was a vital part of their life, but they do not care. They think, you know, I should have full custody, which makes no sense.

Right.

Yeah. I'm generally on like the right side of things. I think <laugh>, so I understand for all my wonderful clients out there, if I'm representing you, then you know that you are the right side <laugh>, because I, I think I do the right thing.

Appreciate it.

And if I do have like a client that's a little unreasonable in the beginning, after my representation of them, they usually become a little bit more reasonable, you know? So that's my job.

Lemme ask you something personal. Um, see, this should take an emotional toll on you, right? And I'm assuming lots of divorce lawyers who are listening to this probably can identify with you. Um, can you describe this? Like how does it impact you? And then what can you do to, you know, I don't wanna use the word cope, but hopefully, um, I don't know. I don't know. You, you used the word, you figure out what the right words are.

I think coping is a good word. Um, yeah, it does take an emotional toll because I think in this area of law, everything moves so fast. So I think for me, I try so hard to just be there for my client, which means if they email me at 8:00 PM I'm responding within the hour, even on weekends, just so I can calm them down, you know? 'cause I think you feel so incredibly alone. So when they reach out to me, I feel like if they can reach somebody, and most of them are so grateful, like they're like, we didn't even expect you to email me. And, you know, those are such wonderful clients. But then I do have other clients that like, once I start doing that, they're like taking my time for granted and then it goes downhill. But yeah, I think for me, coping would be just putting away my phone. Sometimes my husband just has to confiscate it, <laugh>, right? Because otherwise I'm always like checking my emails and I'm on 24 7, and that's not healthy.

Have you thought about giving it up and saying, I'll only check email between working hours? Or is that impossible to do in your role?

I tried once I put on an auto response that said, you know, I'm gonna go back to checking my emails once a day, like normal people. But, uh, that didn't work, <laugh>. So now I'm back to checking emails all through, you know, all around the clock.

Why, why didn't it, why did it not work? Because, um, the emotion was same.

'cause I think I have an addiction, you know, <laugh> getting really personal here. I think I have an addiction to technology and I probably should go to some sort of tech rehab.

So you're saying the clients won't mind if you, if you decide not to respond to emails till the next morning?

I actually think they wouldn't mind as much. I think in my head, I think they mind, but actually I don't think they would. You, I like to blame my addiction on like, um, you know, trying to please my clients. But the truth is, I, I think it, the, the addiction is all mine <laugh>. So there you go. I'm owning up. I have a tech addiction.

Well, fair enough. Maybe try it. Maybe on the weekends you turn it off, see what happens. I,

I think I will. In fact, it might help my marriage <laugh>. So that's another thing that family lawyers should do. You know, identify your errors of fault of your marriage is kind of suffering. And not that my marriage is suffering, but you know what I mean, like, every marriage needs improvement. And I think in my marriage, I'm always glued to my phone. Right. And I need to like stop that.

Right. Because you start mirroring some of the behaviors, right? Just you Yeah. Hearing all these negative stuff, sometimes it's hard to kind of separate your own life from all this stuff going on.

Exactly. So I think I will now, and after this, I think I'm gonna just unplug. So if you need to reach me, sorry,

<laugh>. Yes. I mean, you'll get back, but it's gonna be the next working day. That's it. <laugh>. Yeah.

That's good. Just once a day. Check your email. <laugh>.

Uh, let's talk about, um, you know, so when people are sharing all these stories and stuff, um, so you, you, you, you, you don't get emotionally wrapped up, right? Is, is there anything that you can do to, in other words, you listen to them, you understand them, but not getting upset by it, upset. That's the line that you, it's very hard to not cross, but if you cross it, that's gonna be really hard. Uh, have you been able to strike that line?

Yeah, I mean, I recently had a client that found out that her husband is, you know, meeting a prostitute at a Howard Johnson. You know what I mean? That's like shocking, horrible knowledge, you know? And just for me, I couldn't contain it. I'm like, what? And I had to commiserate, you know, because that's just horrible. Um, but yeah, so I think it's okay to commiserate without saying he's an evil guy. You know? I think in this situation, I think her husband is actually very Christian, and so I was just thinking, you know, how far he's fallen and how far your marriage must have fallen. And she actually thought about that and was like, yeah. And I think I have something to do with it too. It was, it was a very emotional time. But, you know, instead of blaming him, um, I was, I try to get outside of that problem 'cause I'm like, what, what would cause this man who's so Christian to go visit a prostitute? You know what I mean? Because people don't just, people aren't not just evil. I think that's what you have to realize. Like it's not good to side with your client and immediately call your spouse evil. 'cause I think in the moment he might seem evil, but at some point they loved each other. So I don't think it pays for you to paint them as evil.

I agree a hundred percent. We give it meaning. Right? So a lot of times we make up all these stories and I mean, even the word evil is a story. Meaning it's meaning we are giving it.

That's exactly right. And that's what a lot of lawyers do. They listen, you know, the clients really depend on you. So like your narrative and how you describe their spouse is gonna affect them. So if it's all of a sudden you're gonna be conducting a bunch of discovery and subpoenaing all the bank statements because you're letting them be paranoid, you know, and it is just, there's ways that you cannot unnecessarily drive up money. But I don't know, I think there, there needs to be a class given to family lawyers teaching them how to practice this area of law because I think we could make it better or make it worse.

Right. Right. Do you think lawyers do some of these mistakes consciously or unconsciously, or you think it's, I mean, do you have any, had you had, I'm sure you have worked with lawyers definitely on the other side and you know, other people. So what's your take on the whole whole thing?

I think a majority of them are jaded. I mean, they, they can't, you know, after practicing 30, 40 years, you can't change the system. And so maybe, or maybe like in the beginning, they were very trusting and they didn't undergo all this discovery and then their client later sued them or something. You know, like we're, we are all a product of reactions and things that have happened to us. So, you know, a lot of them are jaded, so they're like, you know, it's not my fault that they're going through divorce, so now they wanna hire me and I'm gonna spend a hundred thousand to chase the, to make sure that I comfort everything so that they don't see me for malpractice. So maybe I think some of them justify that. Um, but others I just think is like, okay, I have a hundred thousand, let's see what I can do to spend it.

You know? So I don't know. Everybody has their own different story. I think I've been really blessed that I don't really have a shortage of clients, so I don't have to do, um, things like that. But I always envision that if I had a family to support and I only had one case and you know, it's got a lot of money, then would I, or wouldn't I conduct a bunch of discovery and make it as nasty as possible so I could feed my family? I often, I probably wouldn't. But like I said, I've never been in that situation, so I don't know.

Fair enough. Um, let's talk about teams and how do you structure a firm, uh, to succeed? If you're running a family law practice, do you have any tips? Advice?

So you need to hire, um, as your phone person, like a receptionist, somebody who's extremely compassionate because at a family law firm, you're going to get a lot of phone calls with the spouse is crying. So I always, like whoever's answering my phones is extremely compassionate. It can't just be a, you know, a law. This is, how can I help you? It has to be like immediately soften, gain your composure when somebody is sharing with you that she just discover her husband's cheating on her. Right.

You know, or you just discover that your wife, your son is not yours. Your wife actually had an affair. Like, there you just have to be delicate or you just discover from the doctor that you have HIV because your husband gave it to you. Wow. You know what I mean? Like, there, there, I know, I'm telling you, I've heard it all <laugh>. That's why people, you know, the other day I had a woman come in and she found some text exchange and a person and with 110 an hour, I'm like, that's kinda, that's kind of cheap for a prostitute. And she's like, really? How much are they? I'm like, I think there are more around 500. And she's like, how do you know? I'm like, well, how many of my cases involve prostitutes? No, seriously, how many right now there was like eight <laugh> <laugh>. So,

Right. So the receptionist person is important. Somebody with a lot of compassion. Any other tips? Uh, I know you do a lot of marketing. Can you talk a little bit about how you think about marketing? How do you think about, um, all,

You know what's funny, Narin, I actually don't do marketing. The only thing that I do is I do keep up my blog. And if you wanna call that marketing, it's fine. But I'm a writer. Um, I was an English major, so I actually, I'm a prolific writer, so I write a lot. And if you call my blog marketing, that's the only thing I do. But other than that, I do not pay for any marketing and I don't, you know, I don't really do marketing. The only thing I do is write.

Right. No, I guess what I meant is like you on TV and so forth. So like, I mean, you have Facebook, you have lots of things going on, right? Do you actually personally do these things or manage these things?

Yes, I do. Right. I don't really consider that marketing though. I mean, social media is social media, right. Which is fun. Right. And then being on tv, that's like whenever there's a celebrity divorce, you know, they'll call me in to talk for five minutes. So that's not really marketing either. <laugh>, that's just like getting called to be on tv. Sure. I'll do it <laugh>.

Right. But what I'm saying is a lot of lawyers would kill to have the kind of prisons you have digitally as well as, you know, on TV and stuff. So I'm sure you worked on it, right? Or you, you kind of thought about it and you spent time on it and so forth. I'm just trying to come at, I'm trying to understand, uh, how do you think about it? How much time do you put into it? Do you have a strategy, a plan, you know, uh, anybody learning or listening?

No, I have no strategy and no plan.

You just

Love, I actually, you just, I have never,

You just love social. Yeah. And you love being on, you know, speaking on camera.

Yeah. I think that's it. I do that for free. So like when CNN or CBS call me, they don't pay me. Um, but I get to be on tv. So I guess that's the only marketing. But as far as like Google or FindLaw or Yelp or any of that, I don't pay for any of that stuff. So I, I don't know. My worded advice is you have, you gotta get a website and you know, I got, I built my own website back in 2000, so I think Google indexed it, uh, a long time ago. But, um, Google's algorithms are always changing. So there's been a couple years that I've been dropped, but, um, I don't know. I usually just write, that's the only thing that I do. And then, like this, this podcast is good strategy, if you wanna call it for marketing. Uh, so for things like this, I'll donate my time. Right. You know, so do you have, but yeah, I think

Go ahead. Go ahead. Do you actually spend time, like, for example, following up with the media people, do you actually, in other words, if you, if you have eight hours a day or 10 hours a day, do you say, okay, I'm gonna spend one or two hours on my LinkedIn page or writing an article or following up? You know, do you actually No. Make it as part of the

Study? I have a lot of no time. Not at all. I don't allot any time to social media that I just do on the go. But I don't, like, I don't, say I wake up at eight and I'm gonna go on my LinkedIn page. <laugh>. Got it.

So it's just something that you do naturally between your work and so forth. Something that's just easy for you. It's not a big deal.

Yeah, exactly. Right. It's like, you know, grabbing water if I'm thirsty.

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, that's very unique because a lot of lawyers find it so hard to just put themselves out there and, you know, just be part of the conversation, so to speak.

Yeah. I think my word of advice for lawyers is to just find out who you really are. You know what I mean? Like, I, I, I'm very comfortable with me as a person and I think, um, I, I started this strategy because I was giving so many, I was talking so many people out of a divorce that I invented this hashtag, um, stay outta my office. So I'll just like, I'll give like a little antidote on Twitter and then I'll do hashtag stay outta my office. And so then I'll, all of a sudden everyone's knowing me as like the divorce lawyer that doesn't want divorce clients. Okay. Which is actually like a reverse strategy because then it turns out they think I'm a decent, honest human being that's not gonna steal your money. So now I'm getting like a lot of divorce after I did that. And that was just like something on the fly. And I, I didn't even mean to do it. I was just kind of like, you, you know what I mean? Yeah. He was, he was very, uh,

Very playful, I dunno

What the

Word is. You were just playful with your, with your communication. You just didn't take it.

It just was spontaneous. I guess that's the word. Like I didn't really put any, I think that's the problem. I don't really think about anything. I just do things naturally and just be true to myself.

Right, right.

And then that's it. And then sometimes it gets me in trouble. 'cause it's like, why did you say so much? And it's, other times it works 'cause I'm just me.

Right. And I think that works in marketing, right? That authenticity being you and just putting

Yourself Yeah. Authenticity is exactly right. Which is why I think these podcasts are so awesome and ingenious because you get to know the real you, you know, versus like, you can hire any marketing firm, pay 'em a thousand bucks and they'll do the same thing they do for everybody, but that doesn't make you stand out. Right? You're just one of a thousand versus a podcast. They're listening to you, they're listening to you talk, and it's like, wow, she's really cool. I had a lot of clients come through that way. Like, I did some interviews and I was very opinionated about something or other, and they're like, we really liked what you said. But then I have other people that criticize me too. They're like, oh, she's really like anti Angelina Jolie or whatever, <laugh>. And I'm like, no, I'm not. She's actually one of my favorite actresses and I only know what you guys tell me. You know what I mean? Like, I heard that she was doing this, so therefore I think she's alienating the kids, but I don't really know, I'm not privy to, I'm not their lawyers,

Right.

I'm just giving an opinion. Right. And opinions are worth crap,

<laugh>. Fair enough. But I, I do agree with you that when it comes to putting yourself out there, if you wanna use the word marketing, authenticity works. People resonate with human beings. And just being yourself is the critical thing for success. Because, you know, if you try to be this quote unquote buttoned up suit and tie person, that's not a human being. That's the thing, right? We don't connect with things, we connect with humans.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

That's awesome. Any final piece of advice for somebody who is, um, kind of, um, struggling or, yeah, let's start with struggling who's kind of, you know, working hard, doing a lot of consults and not really making it three bullet points you would give, give that person,

I would say manage your time wisely. So I'll give you an example. If you're giving eight free consults a day, why don't you consider writing an article? You know, because usually in these consults, there's certain questions that are being asked over and over and over again. So, you know, take these questions and put it into a very unique handwritten article and then put it on your website and then stop offering free consults. Instead direct 'em to your website because they can glean as much as from their website than an hour with you. My website is full of info. Uh, that's my way of giving back to the public. But I do not sit down one-on-one with people. I just don't have the time. But that's, you know, that's no number one, manage your time. If you're not making any money and you're wasting it, you could be spending that time with your children.

So that's number one. Number two, um, I think you, I think internet is very important these days. So if you have a website, you need to make it work for you. Um, and I would say, uh, along with your website, I have some sort of control over it. So like, for instance, I'm in charge of all the content of my website. I don't really hire somebody. So because I'm the writer and I do all the content and I can do all the, uh, meta tags on it, then it's like, I control it. You know what I mean? So it's, have control over your game. Don't farm out the marketing. 'cause that's really important. And the number three would just be, you know, enjoy life. Um, prioritize, what's the most important to you? Uh, while I think my job is extremely important to me, it is not the most important thing. I think the most important thing is my family. And then second to that is my health. So, you know, I, I'm always like hiking and being active, just keeping healthy to have that rosy glow, you know, youthful glow, <laugh>. And then, um, that's, those are the two most important things to me, my family and my health, which includes eating, right? I think a lot of lawyers have horrible, horrible diets and they don't exercise. They need to get outta that. It's horrible. Nobody's gonna hire you if you're fat and ugly. You know what I mean? <laugh>. So

I think that's awesome advice. I think that's amazing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, I really appreciate just, just zooming into those three things, just boom, boom, boom. That's, I think people would get a lot of value. Yeah. Take

Care of yourself. You might wanna leave out the fat and ugly part because <laugh>, I do know of beautiful people that are fat or skinny, just be perfect. You know what I mean? Glow doesn't matter what your weight is, but yeah, they're not gonna hire you if you look like you don't take care of yourself. Because that's the thing. It's like in a divorce, if you're, you know, they're paying you by the hour. Okay? So think about it this way. If your time is 500 an hour and you just gave away three hours for free, you just wasted 1500. So for a prospective client, you're supposed to be helping them save money. They're looking at you like you don't save your own money, so how are you gonna defend me? You know what I mean? It's, it's like a weird psychological gain. It's like the more you give for free. I've had a lot of clients come to me after they went around town and said, I got like 10 free consults. But because they were free, I thought, you know, they're not that good. And then they'll, because you know, people want, they want value. And if you're free, there's no value to you, to your services.

I think that's an excellent point. We want things we cannot have. Scarcity.

Exactly. Scarcity. And just you valuing your time, you protecting your money, that's number one. Then they're gonna know you're gonna protect their money. 'cause if you don't protect your family or your money, you're not gonna protect theirs. Every, we're all very normally selfish creatures. None of us are selfless.

Right, right. That's wonderful advice. I really appreciate talking to you, Kelly, and hopefully one of these days we can have you back.

I would love that. Thank you so much, Narin.

Thank you everyone for listening. Kelly, do you mind if we include, uh, your website, any other information you want us to include along with the podcast?

Uh, nope. That's it. The website is a good place to go.

Perfect. So if a, a lawyer wants to get ahold of you or just chit chat or whatever, can they just maybe drop you an email or you're not gonna call them back? I know you're very honest. <laugh> <laugh>.

I welcome any like nice people who just wanna say hi, but please no legal, I don't give free legal advice, so please don't call me and ask for legal advice. That's the only thing I ask,

Right? No, I'm saying c colleagues, people who are lawyers.

Yes. Colleagues are fine.

Okay, fine. Perfect. So we can include your website and if they, if they wanted to at least follow you or things like that, they can just look you up and maybe drop you an email.

Absolutely.

Perfect. Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you very much Kelly, for taking your time to talk to us today. And you are like a breath of fresh air. You're so different from a lot of other people I've talked to. So I really appreciate <laugh>, you being very authentic, <laugh> being very authentic and helping us, uh, understand this, uh, this feel a little bit, you know, both from the client point of view and, and your point of view and, and, and kind of doing the right thing point of view. So I really appreciate it. Uh, if you like this podcast, please feel free to share it on social media, right? Review for us. Um, if you have any marketing questions, you can reach out to us. If you have any questions for Kelly, I think the best thing is just go and study what she does. 'cause she's pretty transparent. You can see, see her website, you can see all of her social media stuff. You can see everything. So, um, just see what she's doing and see if you can learn from it. And I'm sure you'll learn a ton from what she's doing. So thank you everyone for listening and have a wonderful day.

Thank you for listening to Dominate Law podcast series, brought to you by Dominate Law Marketing. For more information, please visit our website@www.dominatelaw.com. If you like our podcast, rate us or leave us a review on Facebook, please subscribe via Stitcher or iTunes and also find us on Instagram and Twitter.