Why Your Best Referral Sources Stop Sending You Clients and How to Win Them Back
Key Discussion Points
1. Why Referral Networks Leak Revenue
- Referral relationships often weaken not because the quality of a firm’s work has changed, but because relationships are taken for granted
- Even strong referral partners are busy, distracted, and exposed to other professionals competing for their attention
- Firms need to remain memorable, useful, and genuinely connected instead of assuming that a past referral relationship will continue indefinitely
- Tracking referral sources is essential because firms cannot repair a relationship they do not realize is declining
- Technology can help identify where business is coming from, but firms should also verify referral information through intake conversations and direct feedback from their teams
2. Auditing Your Most Valuable Referral Sources
- Law firms should regularly review which people are actually sending business, how much revenue those referrals generate, and whether referral activity is increasing or declining
- A relatively small group of “super fans” may account for a significant portion of a firm’s referral-driven revenue
- Referral quality matters as much as referral quantity. Firms should consider the size of matters, client quality, payment behavior, and whether referred clients are a good fit for the firm
- A referral source can still be valuable even during a temporary decline if that person remains a strong connector capable of creating meaningful introductions
- Firms should also examine whether relationships are genuinely reciprocal and whether they can provide meaningful value back to their strongest referral partners
3. Building a Quarterly Touchpoint Cadence
- Referral development should be intentional rather than dependent on remembering to contact someone when business slows down
- Firms can create systems that prompt regular lunches, phone calls, events, personal notes, gifts, introductions, and other meaningful interactions
- Attorneys do not have to personally manage every part of the process. Specific team members can take ownership of professional relationships and help ensure important contacts are not neglected
- Outreach works best when it is genuinely focused on the other person rather than simply asking for more referrals
- Asking deeper questions about a referral partner’s business, challenges, clients, and opportunities can strengthen the relationship while creating opportunities to help
4. The 24-Hour Referral Experience
- The experience immediately following a referral can strongly influence whether a referral source continues recommending the firm
- Referral partners should receive a prompt acknowledgment and confirmation that their client or contact is being taken care of
- Even when an attorney cannot meet with the prospective client immediately, a quick response can communicate professionalism and appreciation
- Firms should clearly assign ownership across attorneys, intake staff, and relationship-management teams so referrals do not become lost during the handoff
- Small personal touches can be powerful. A handwritten thank-you note, personal message, thoughtful book, or relevant gift can differentiate a firm in an increasingly automated environment
5. Giving Before Asking for More Referrals
- Effective networking is less about collecting contacts and more about becoming useful to the people in your network
- Attorneys can create value by making introductions, referring business, inviting partners to events, featuring them in podcasts or panels, sharing useful resources, or supporting causes that matter to them
- The “currency” of a referral relationship does not always have to be another client
- Firms should learn what their referral partners actually value and find practical ways to make their lives or businesses easier
- When a relationship feels one-sided for a long period of time, firms should evaluate whether continued investment makes strategic sense
6. Turning Networking Into Relationship Building
- Traditional networking often becomes transactional because everyone is focused on explaining what they do and exchanging contact information
- A better approach is to enter networking conversations with curiosity and ask what problems or opportunities the other person is currently working through
- Becoming a connector between people in your network can make you significantly more memorable than simply promoting your own services
- Strong referral relationships are ultimately built through genuine human interaction, not solely through emails, texts, CRM systems, or automated marketing
- Consistent, thoughtful relationship building can create a competitive advantage because many professionals are simply not doing it well
7. The Referral-to-Digital Handoff
- A referral may create initial trust, but prospective clients often verify that recommendation online before contacting the firm
- Someone who hears a lawyer’s name may still visit the firm’s website, search for the attorney, review credentials, read reviews, or compare the firm with competitors
- This means referral relationships and digital marketing should not operate as separate strategies
- Strong online visibility and credibility help reinforce the confidence that a referral partner has already created
- Firms should examine the entire journey from recommendation to online research to inquiry to ensure prospective clients are not dropping out after receiving a strong referral
1
00:00:09.410 --> 00:00:12.970
Welcome to the dominate law podcast.
2
00:00:13.770 --> 00:00:15.350
I'm your host, Angie.
3
00:00:15.750 --> 00:00:19.310
And today's conversation is about something almost every
4
00:00:19.310 --> 00:00:22.870
law firm depends on, but very few manage
5
00:00:22.870 --> 00:00:25.150
intentionally referral relationships.
6
00:00:26.050 --> 00:00:28.870
Why do people who once sent you great
7
00:00:28.870 --> 00:00:30.990
clients suddenly go quiet?
8
00:00:31.689 --> 00:00:34.330
And more importantly, how do you rebuild that
9
00:00:34.330 --> 00:00:37.650
relationship before the opportunity disappears completely?
10
00:00:38.350 --> 00:00:41.490
Before we get into the conversation, this episode
11
00:00:41.490 --> 00:00:45.270
is proudly sponsored by Equa Marketing, helping law
12
00:00:45.270 --> 00:00:48.310
firms strengthen how they are found, understood and
13
00:00:48.310 --> 00:00:49.310
trusted online.
14
00:00:50.050 --> 00:00:53.150
And for law firm owners and managing partners,
15
00:00:53.730 --> 00:00:57.530
Equa is offering a complimentary referral growth strategy
16
00:00:57.530 --> 00:01:02.850
session, a $900 value, where a senior strategist
17
00:01:02.850 --> 00:01:06.450
will look at your firm's visibility, referral journey,
18
00:01:07.070 --> 00:01:09.430
and the opportunities you may be missing when
19
00:01:09.430 --> 00:01:12.650
potential clients move from a recommendation to checking
20
00:01:12.650 --> 00:01:13.610
you out online.
21
00:01:14.170 --> 00:01:18.490
You can reserve your complimentary session at www
22
00:01:18.490 --> 00:01:22.810
.dominatelaw.com slash MSM.
23
00:01:23.070 --> 00:01:26.930
And today's guests bring two very different perspectives
24
00:01:26.930 --> 00:01:28.330
to this conversation.
25
00:01:29.330 --> 00:01:33.250
Ben Glass, founder and CEO of Ben Glass
26
00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:37.430
law and great legal marketing, brings more than
27
00:01:37.430 --> 00:01:40.930
40 years of legal experience and more than
28
00:01:40.930 --> 00:01:45.030
two decades helping solo and small firm lawyers
29
00:01:45.030 --> 00:01:50.450
improve their marketing, leadership, profitability and business systems.
30
00:01:51.090 --> 00:01:55.450
And joining him is Leslie Cohen, founder and
31
00:01:55.450 --> 00:01:58.650
managing partner of All Rise Legal Council.
32
00:02:00.110 --> 00:02:02.670
Leslie has more than 30 years of legal
33
00:02:02.670 --> 00:02:07.430
experience and works closely with startups, entrepreneurs and
34
00:02:07.430 --> 00:02:12.150
growing companies with relationship building and referrals playing
35
00:02:12.150 --> 00:02:14.330
a major role in how she has built
36
00:02:14.330 --> 00:02:15.410
her own practice.
37
00:02:16.610 --> 00:02:19.890
Together we're talking about why referral relationships lose
38
00:02:19.890 --> 00:02:23.490
momentum, how to identify your most valuable referral
39
00:02:23.490 --> 00:02:26.950
sources, what the first 24 hours after a
40
00:02:26.950 --> 00:02:30.670
referral should look like, and why staying genuinely
41
00:02:30.670 --> 00:02:33.830
connected still matters in an increasingly digital world.
42
00:02:34.630 --> 00:02:36.810
Let's get into the conversation.
43
00:02:37.570 --> 00:02:39.970
So Ben, let me start with you.
44
00:02:41.730 --> 00:02:42.430
All right.
45
00:02:42.550 --> 00:02:42.710
Yes.
46
00:02:43.450 --> 00:02:45.430
Get into the conversation, questions.
47
00:02:46.490 --> 00:02:49.790
So Ben, where do you see referral relationships
48
00:02:49.790 --> 00:02:53.390
losing momentum most often, even when a firm
49
00:02:53.390 --> 00:02:57.130
believes those relationships remain strong and its service
50
00:02:57.130 --> 00:02:59.070
quality has not changed?
51
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.740
We so anytime you have a referral relationship,
52
00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:07.920
I mean, the key is to stay interesting
53
00:03:07.920 --> 00:03:11.920
to that to that person, because everybody's busy,
54
00:03:12.580 --> 00:03:14.300
everybody is distracted.
55
00:03:15.460 --> 00:03:17.780
And, you know, this is a human psychology
56
00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:20.960
thing, like being the the person or the
57
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:22.100
product or the brand.
58
00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:24.360
This goes like Leslie's doing really cool work
59
00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.900
with entrepreneurs and startups being the one to
60
00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:28.720
be remembered.
61
00:03:28.820 --> 00:03:30.720
First of all, even if you have a
62
00:03:30.720 --> 00:03:31.760
relationship, it's so important.
63
00:03:31.760 --> 00:03:35.660
So most of us, if we're tracking at
64
00:03:35.660 --> 00:03:37.220
all and most lawyers.
65
00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:39.500
So I'm a personal injury and a long
66
00:03:39.500 --> 00:03:41.160
term disability insurance lawyer.
67
00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:41.440
Right.
68
00:03:41.440 --> 00:03:43.440
So we got a regional practice in Virginia.
69
00:03:43.580 --> 00:03:45.120
We have national practice in the space.
70
00:03:47.540 --> 00:03:51.480
And most lawyers, I think, start to take
71
00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:54.680
for granted, oh, Mr. Billy always sends me
72
00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:56.940
cases or Dr. Smith always sends me cases.
73
00:03:57.220 --> 00:03:57.520
Cool.
74
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.560
And we forget that they have to stay
75
00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:01.380
interested.
76
00:04:01.380 --> 00:04:03.740
So that means you have to stay interesting.
77
00:04:03.920 --> 00:04:06.220
We'll talk about some strategies here on this
78
00:04:06.220 --> 00:04:06.660
call.
79
00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:10.440
But it's and this is a I'm older,
80
00:04:10.720 --> 00:04:10.920
right?
81
00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:15.140
In in the world today, I think we
82
00:04:15.140 --> 00:04:17.540
have to be very intentional as human beings
83
00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:20.800
about maintaining human being to human being relationships,
84
00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.900
about starting making new friends, right, keeping your
85
00:04:24.900 --> 00:04:25.440
old friends.
86
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:27.380
It is and I know I sound like
87
00:04:27.380 --> 00:04:28.060
an old guy, right.
88
00:04:28.060 --> 00:04:31.000
But it is so easy to get on
89
00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.140
your phone or get on an email, send
90
00:04:33.140 --> 00:04:35.820
someone an email and think that that is
91
00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:40.080
the same thing as a human being conversation.
92
00:04:40.940 --> 00:04:41.980
It is not.
93
00:04:43.320 --> 00:04:45.640
And so the bar for for those who
94
00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:47.920
will want to increase referrals or maintain relation,
95
00:04:48.200 --> 00:04:52.240
the bar is relatively low because most professionals
96
00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.040
are not really good at this.
97
00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:55.200
Again, they're busy.
98
00:04:55.640 --> 00:04:57.860
We'll talk about some systems and things you
99
00:04:57.860 --> 00:04:58.620
can do, I think.
100
00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:03.860
But the main reason we just take this
101
00:05:03.860 --> 00:05:06.820
for granted and we've just forget how distracted
102
00:05:06.820 --> 00:05:07.740
people are today.
103
00:05:10.190 --> 00:05:12.650
Such a great answer, Ben.
104
00:05:12.850 --> 00:05:15.310
Now, let's make that practical for a bit.
105
00:05:15.890 --> 00:05:18.910
If a firm suspects one of its strongest
106
00:05:18.910 --> 00:05:21.970
referral sources is cooling off, what's the first
107
00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:22.850
thing you would investigate?
108
00:05:23.530 --> 00:05:24.630
Well, first thing you have to do is
109
00:05:24.630 --> 00:05:25.150
notice it.
110
00:05:25.830 --> 00:05:26.310
Right.
111
00:05:26.470 --> 00:05:28.610
And if you don't have systems and tracking
112
00:05:28.610 --> 00:05:30.610
and you're not asking questions and the systems
113
00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:30.970
go beyond.
114
00:05:31.090 --> 00:05:31.870
So here's the other thing, right.
115
00:05:32.590 --> 00:05:33.810
All this technology stacks.
116
00:05:34.450 --> 00:05:36.130
Oh, we know like where our cases are
117
00:05:36.130 --> 00:05:36.690
coming from.
118
00:05:37.810 --> 00:05:38.290
Hmm.
119
00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:40.510
Go listen to the calls of your sales
120
00:05:40.510 --> 00:05:40.770
team.
121
00:05:41.210 --> 00:05:42.570
Are they asking the right questions?
122
00:05:42.630 --> 00:05:46.890
Like just because the technology says, oh, this
123
00:05:46.890 --> 00:05:49.730
came this case or this client came from
124
00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:52.270
this source doesn't mean it's actually true.
125
00:05:52.270 --> 00:05:55.110
So first you have to you have to
126
00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:55.790
really track.
127
00:05:56.010 --> 00:05:56.690
And then now.
128
00:05:56.910 --> 00:05:57.650
So that's the precursor.
129
00:05:57.810 --> 00:05:59.190
And remind me, what was your question again,
130
00:05:59.230 --> 00:05:59.450
Angie?
131
00:05:59.670 --> 00:06:01.130
You actually asked a different question.
132
00:06:01.270 --> 00:06:04.350
But the question doesn't matter if you're not
133
00:06:04.350 --> 00:06:05.490
tracking to begin with.
134
00:06:05.590 --> 00:06:05.790
Right.
135
00:06:08.110 --> 00:06:09.770
So so it's noticing.
136
00:06:09.890 --> 00:06:13.170
And then it's it's it is as it
137
00:06:13.170 --> 00:06:14.210
is as simple as reaching out.
138
00:06:14.210 --> 00:06:17.530
So old guy deliberately.
139
00:06:19.450 --> 00:06:23.810
Sets lunches, sets phone calls like real phone
140
00:06:23.810 --> 00:06:25.990
calls like, hey, Warner, like let's just catch
141
00:06:25.990 --> 00:06:27.830
up for a little bit like you're my
142
00:06:27.830 --> 00:06:28.150
buddy.
143
00:06:28.450 --> 00:06:30.050
I send you cases, you send me cases.
144
00:06:30.330 --> 00:06:31.270
We haven't talked in a while.
145
00:06:31.470 --> 00:06:31.690
Right.
146
00:06:31.810 --> 00:06:32.590
We're all really busy.
147
00:06:33.010 --> 00:06:34.610
This is be intentional about that.
148
00:06:36.270 --> 00:06:37.710
And the other thing I think we have
149
00:06:37.710 --> 00:06:40.570
done at the law firm really well is
150
00:06:40.570 --> 00:06:43.770
in being curious about the other person's business.
151
00:06:44.930 --> 00:06:46.750
People love to talk about themselves.
152
00:06:47.650 --> 00:06:47.750
Right.
153
00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:49.510
So when we're having a human being to
154
00:06:49.510 --> 00:06:51.230
human conversation, it's not about how great I
155
00:06:51.230 --> 00:06:52.730
am or all this cool stuff that we're
156
00:06:52.730 --> 00:06:52.950
doing.
157
00:06:53.030 --> 00:06:53.210
Right.
158
00:06:53.850 --> 00:06:56.670
Hey, Leslie, I that sounds really cool.
159
00:06:56.690 --> 00:06:58.850
Like tell me about the types of folks
160
00:06:58.850 --> 00:07:01.110
who come to you that you love to
161
00:07:01.110 --> 00:07:03.790
see walking through the door and that you
162
00:07:03.790 --> 00:07:07.790
can help because you, Leslie, get exposed to
163
00:07:07.790 --> 00:07:09.390
a lot of different industries, a lot of
164
00:07:09.390 --> 00:07:09.930
different businesses.
165
00:07:09.930 --> 00:07:11.870
And as an entrepreneur, I think that's really
166
00:07:11.870 --> 00:07:12.130
cool.
167
00:07:12.450 --> 00:07:12.550
Right.
168
00:07:12.650 --> 00:07:15.930
And so learning to ask questions one, two
169
00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:18.570
and three levels deep, which most people can't
170
00:07:18.570 --> 00:07:19.210
do anymore.
171
00:07:19.210 --> 00:07:19.630
Right.
172
00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:22.970
And allowing the other person to talk about
173
00:07:22.970 --> 00:07:26.050
themselves, their lives, their business, they will walk
174
00:07:26.050 --> 00:07:27.790
away from that conversation even if they have
175
00:07:27.790 --> 00:07:28.750
not asked you anything.
176
00:07:29.050 --> 00:07:30.930
They will walk away from that conversation thinking
177
00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:33.170
that they have had the best conversation of
178
00:07:33.170 --> 00:07:33.610
their week.
179
00:07:33.610 --> 00:07:34.650
And I think that's.
180
00:07:36.530 --> 00:07:39.470
I'll say this last thing, that's what's important,
181
00:07:39.510 --> 00:07:42.030
because it's not that people remember that, oh,
182
00:07:42.070 --> 00:07:44.190
Ben is a person, a lawyer or a
183
00:07:44.190 --> 00:07:47.510
disability lawyer or whatever, or that Leslie helps
184
00:07:47.510 --> 00:07:49.970
with startups and entrepreneurs.
185
00:07:50.250 --> 00:07:50.890
It's not that.
186
00:07:51.170 --> 00:07:53.230
Is Leslie an interesting person?
187
00:07:53.590 --> 00:07:56.550
Does she seem like a smart person with
188
00:07:56.550 --> 00:07:59.810
a big Rolodex is Ben someone who genuinely
189
00:07:59.810 --> 00:08:00.410
wants to help me?
190
00:08:00.730 --> 00:08:01.210
That's the key.
191
00:08:01.210 --> 00:08:03.290
So, again, the bar isn't high because this
192
00:08:03.290 --> 00:08:05.650
is how humans have interacted millennia.
193
00:08:05.890 --> 00:08:07.510
We just like forgetting about it now because
194
00:08:07.510 --> 00:08:08.550
everything is by text.
195
00:08:09.810 --> 00:08:11.030
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
196
00:08:11.470 --> 00:08:14.850
Leslie, I'd like to bring you in briefly
197
00:08:14.850 --> 00:08:16.750
as well from the relationship side.
198
00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:18.410
What would you notice first?
199
00:08:21.410 --> 00:08:25.410
Notice in terms of what I just can
200
00:08:25.410 --> 00:08:27.090
you elaborate on the question?
201
00:08:27.550 --> 00:08:32.250
Yeah, let me repeat the two questions I
202
00:08:32.250 --> 00:08:32.549
asked.
203
00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:34.990
So I asked Ben first, where do you
204
00:08:34.990 --> 00:08:38.630
see referral relationships losing momentum most often, even
205
00:08:38.630 --> 00:08:41.690
when a firm believes those relationships remain strong
206
00:08:41.690 --> 00:08:43.890
and its service quality has not changed?
207
00:08:44.290 --> 00:08:46.810
Then I asked him how we could make
208
00:08:46.810 --> 00:08:47.370
it practical.
209
00:08:47.570 --> 00:08:49.450
If a firm suspects one of its strongest
210
00:08:49.450 --> 00:08:52.870
referral sources is cooling off, what's the first
211
00:08:52.870 --> 00:08:54.250
thing you would investigate?
212
00:08:55.250 --> 00:08:55.890
Gotcha.
213
00:08:56.150 --> 00:08:59.570
OK, so I second so much of what
214
00:08:59.570 --> 00:09:00.370
Ben said.
215
00:09:01.290 --> 00:09:04.550
I just, you know, for background purposes, I
216
00:09:04.550 --> 00:09:06.590
was at when I was in big law,
217
00:09:06.730 --> 00:09:10.630
which I was for 20 years, the referrals,
218
00:09:11.090 --> 00:09:13.270
the business, the building of a book of
219
00:09:13.270 --> 00:09:16.170
business from the firms I was at, at
220
00:09:16.170 --> 00:09:19.510
least was done mostly through playing golf together
221
00:09:19.510 --> 00:09:22.310
and going to charity events together.
222
00:09:22.510 --> 00:09:24.530
And that wasn't something I was able to
223
00:09:24.530 --> 00:09:25.850
do because I had young children.
224
00:09:25.850 --> 00:09:28.430
So I wanted to build my own book
225
00:09:28.430 --> 00:09:30.970
of business and I did it 100 percent
226
00:09:30.970 --> 00:09:32.170
using networking.
227
00:09:32.650 --> 00:09:37.090
And so the the key to networking is
228
00:09:37.090 --> 00:09:37.710
is giving.
229
00:09:37.930 --> 00:09:39.330
It's not getting its giving.
230
00:09:39.810 --> 00:09:43.490
And the key to continuing having those referral
231
00:09:43.490 --> 00:09:47.590
sources work and continue to want to send
232
00:09:47.590 --> 00:09:52.270
business to you, obviously, you know, first thing
233
00:09:52.270 --> 00:09:54.610
is to make the the.
234
00:09:55.910 --> 00:10:00.010
Intake process for the referral, very speedy and
235
00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:01.750
very simple and very straightforward.
236
00:10:02.070 --> 00:10:04.510
So you want to respond immediately.
237
00:10:04.770 --> 00:10:06.730
And I it drives me crazy when these
238
00:10:06.730 --> 00:10:09.030
firms have these, you know, we respond in
239
00:10:09.030 --> 00:10:09.790
24 hours.
240
00:10:09.990 --> 00:10:11.490
I respond in 10 minutes.
241
00:10:12.430 --> 00:10:15.630
You know, I'm at my and and I
242
00:10:15.630 --> 00:10:16.870
and all my lawyers, too.
243
00:10:17.010 --> 00:10:19.170
You don't have to be working 24 seven,
244
00:10:19.490 --> 00:10:21.070
but you have to be responsive.
245
00:10:21.070 --> 00:10:22.930
And especially when you have a good referral
246
00:10:22.930 --> 00:10:24.850
source and they send a client.
247
00:10:24.850 --> 00:10:28.130
It's an immediate, even if you're even if
248
00:10:28.130 --> 00:10:30.410
you're you can't meet with that person that
249
00:10:30.410 --> 00:10:32.990
they're referring for for two weeks.
250
00:10:33.390 --> 00:10:35.230
Hopefully that isn't the case, but it's an
251
00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:37.610
immediate, you know, Ben, thank you so much
252
00:10:37.610 --> 00:10:38.690
for an email response.
253
00:10:38.790 --> 00:10:40.690
Thank you so much for making this referral,
254
00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:44.410
you know, and for the kind words, yada
255
00:10:44.410 --> 00:10:46.270
yada so and so client.
256
00:10:46.270 --> 00:10:47.550
It's so nice to meet you.
257
00:10:47.890 --> 00:10:50.190
Here's a link to my calendar or here
258
00:10:50.190 --> 00:10:51.710
are a few times that I can get
259
00:10:51.710 --> 00:10:52.110
together.
260
00:10:52.110 --> 00:10:55.590
It's an immediate process wise response.
261
00:10:56.010 --> 00:10:57.670
And then once you do talk to that
262
00:10:57.670 --> 00:11:03.870
client also, you know, showing up and having,
263
00:11:04.050 --> 00:11:06.930
you know, having a process again for that
264
00:11:06.930 --> 00:11:10.290
conversation where, you know, we we just we
265
00:11:10.290 --> 00:11:13.270
have our our marketing and our intake process
266
00:11:13.270 --> 00:11:14.410
just very well.
267
00:11:15.190 --> 00:11:16.690
It's like a fine tune machine.
268
00:11:16.870 --> 00:11:19.450
So I think making sure that all that
269
00:11:19.450 --> 00:11:21.550
happens and then and then.
270
00:11:22.250 --> 00:11:25.470
You know, if you it's funny when when
271
00:11:25.470 --> 00:11:27.210
you asked me to to be part of
272
00:11:27.210 --> 00:11:29.530
this panel and I saw the questions, I
273
00:11:29.530 --> 00:11:31.210
said, this doesn't happen at our firm.
274
00:11:31.330 --> 00:11:32.810
We don't lose referral sources.
275
00:11:33.130 --> 00:11:34.330
They don't drop off.
276
00:11:34.550 --> 00:11:35.510
And I'll tell you why.
277
00:11:35.550 --> 00:11:37.090
It's exactly what Ben said.
278
00:11:37.890 --> 00:11:40.770
These are so I haven't at the end
279
00:11:40.770 --> 00:11:42.990
of every year I measure the ROI.
280
00:11:43.350 --> 00:11:45.110
I ask every new client, you know, where'd
281
00:11:45.110 --> 00:11:45.670
you get my name?
282
00:11:45.670 --> 00:11:48.310
And I keep track of every referral source.
283
00:11:48.830 --> 00:11:52.590
And then when and then those referral sources
284
00:11:52.590 --> 00:11:54.670
at your end, I look at and there's
285
00:11:54.670 --> 00:11:56.570
typically you have super fans, right?
286
00:11:56.590 --> 00:11:58.790
So there's a handful of people who send
287
00:11:58.790 --> 00:12:00.890
you most of your business and then and
288
00:12:00.890 --> 00:12:01.890
then you see the drop off.
289
00:12:01.970 --> 00:12:03.290
If you look at if you look at
290
00:12:03.290 --> 00:12:06.310
revenue from those clients, you see the drop
291
00:12:06.310 --> 00:12:08.030
off and it's very easy to and then
292
00:12:08.030 --> 00:12:10.530
and then I really focus on for those
293
00:12:10.530 --> 00:12:12.410
referral sources that are important.
294
00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:15.050
You first of all, you have to refer
295
00:12:15.050 --> 00:12:15.390
back.
296
00:12:15.390 --> 00:12:17.490
You have to constantly refer work back to
297
00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:17.690
them.
298
00:12:18.530 --> 00:12:20.230
You have to show up if they invite
299
00:12:20.230 --> 00:12:20.990
you to an event.
300
00:12:21.470 --> 00:12:23.670
I don't care if it's a blizzard and
301
00:12:23.670 --> 00:12:25.490
it's eight o'clock at night and you're
302
00:12:25.490 --> 00:12:27.530
exhausted and miserable and you have to get
303
00:12:27.530 --> 00:12:28.850
on a train to go there.
304
00:12:29.130 --> 00:12:31.450
You go, you show up when they send
305
00:12:31.450 --> 00:12:34.390
something asking for a charitable contribution for something
306
00:12:34.390 --> 00:12:35.150
important to them.
307
00:12:35.430 --> 00:12:36.350
You make the contribution.
308
00:12:36.930 --> 00:12:37.790
You have your own events.
309
00:12:37.890 --> 00:12:38.970
You invite them to them.
310
00:12:39.090 --> 00:12:42.830
I mean, you really cultivate those those relationships.
311
00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:46.310
Can I say something about networking, just to
312
00:12:46.310 --> 00:12:48.530
add on to what Leslie said, some most
313
00:12:48.530 --> 00:12:50.890
people have networking all wrong.
314
00:12:52.190 --> 00:12:56.030
The real the for me, the real value
315
00:12:56.030 --> 00:12:58.370
of networking is I have this network of
316
00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:01.690
experts and people that I know who are
317
00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:03.070
good at whatever, good at something in the
318
00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:03.290
world.
319
00:13:03.530 --> 00:13:05.950
And if I go to an event, the
320
00:13:05.950 --> 00:13:08.790
super the super question to ask is somebody
321
00:13:08.790 --> 00:13:12.490
because most network events are like, here's my
322
00:13:12.490 --> 00:13:13.510
card, here's what I do.
323
00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:14.430
It's very boring.
324
00:13:14.830 --> 00:13:17.710
Like, hey, what problem or what problem are
325
00:13:17.710 --> 00:13:19.370
you working on or opportunity are you trying
326
00:13:19.370 --> 00:13:20.310
to solve for today?
327
00:13:20.910 --> 00:13:22.870
And again, you get the other person talking.
328
00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:26.830
There's probably somebody in your network who, you
329
00:13:26.830 --> 00:13:28.390
know, could help on that journey.
330
00:13:29.110 --> 00:13:29.330
Right.
331
00:13:29.470 --> 00:13:30.890
And so if you go to a networking
332
00:13:30.890 --> 00:13:32.910
event as a with a view of being
333
00:13:32.910 --> 00:13:35.170
a connector, it's what Leslie said.
334
00:13:35.230 --> 00:13:35.830
It's helping.
335
00:13:35.970 --> 00:13:38.450
It's like this is not about me.
336
00:13:38.450 --> 00:13:40.850
I'm going to help this group of people
337
00:13:40.850 --> 00:13:43.490
meet this group of people who already I
338
00:13:43.490 --> 00:13:44.610
am associated with.
339
00:13:45.150 --> 00:13:46.310
And boom, that's how you move the needle
340
00:13:46.310 --> 00:13:46.930
of the world.
341
00:13:47.810 --> 00:13:49.290
And I think that would help a lot
342
00:13:49.290 --> 00:13:54.090
of lawyers who maybe hate networking events because
343
00:13:54.090 --> 00:13:56.810
they don't really know what to do.
344
00:13:57.030 --> 00:14:00.710
Again, asking curious questions and thinking and maybe
345
00:14:00.710 --> 00:14:01.350
make a note.
346
00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:02.870
And then then you go later and make
347
00:14:02.870 --> 00:14:05.690
that connection like it makes networking fun.
348
00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:07.870
And now people remember you.
349
00:14:08.270 --> 00:14:11.470
Oh, Leslie hooked me up to this expert
350
00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:12.710
over here who I needed.
351
00:14:13.630 --> 00:14:13.730
So.
352
00:14:14.930 --> 00:14:16.230
Rethink that world.
353
00:14:17.030 --> 00:14:20.450
So how do you decide between investing more
354
00:14:20.450 --> 00:14:24.670
attention in historically strong referral sources and developing
355
00:14:24.670 --> 00:14:29.290
newer relationships when both compete for limited business
356
00:14:29.290 --> 00:14:30.430
development time?
357
00:14:31.570 --> 00:14:32.670
So we do both.
358
00:14:34.430 --> 00:14:36.590
And a key is that you don't have
359
00:14:36.590 --> 00:14:38.430
to be the one, but you are one
360
00:14:38.430 --> 00:14:40.270
human being with 24 hours in a day,
361
00:14:40.310 --> 00:14:41.110
just like everybody else.
362
00:14:41.930 --> 00:14:43.190
We all have busy lives.
363
00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:44.450
We all have outside interests.
364
00:14:44.590 --> 00:14:46.670
Many of us have children and children's sports
365
00:14:46.670 --> 00:14:47.490
and all of that stuff.
366
00:14:47.770 --> 00:14:49.750
So that's one thing is you can develop
367
00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:53.650
systems for building out new referral sources.
368
00:14:53.650 --> 00:14:55.850
So we've got a really good system in
369
00:14:55.850 --> 00:14:56.150
place.
370
00:14:56.210 --> 00:14:57.590
We use a lot of direct mail.
371
00:14:57.590 --> 00:15:00.650
So the lawyers that can refer us, Arisa,
372
00:15:01.190 --> 00:15:03.950
disability work or adjacent space like social security
373
00:15:03.950 --> 00:15:06.290
lawyers, employment lawyers, we've got a really good
374
00:15:06.290 --> 00:15:11.130
direct mail system for introducing ourselves to them.
375
00:15:11.770 --> 00:15:11.950
All right.
376
00:15:13.250 --> 00:15:15.630
And then so much of what happens at
377
00:15:15.630 --> 00:15:21.150
my firm in terms of of solidifying the
378
00:15:21.150 --> 00:15:23.510
relationship with current sources is we actually have
379
00:15:23.510 --> 00:15:24.330
a happiness director.
380
00:15:24.410 --> 00:15:25.550
So if you go on our website, you'll
381
00:15:25.550 --> 00:15:26.130
see Susie.
382
00:15:26.130 --> 00:15:27.490
Susie is a happiness director.
383
00:15:27.690 --> 00:15:29.870
If you want a professional title, she's in
384
00:15:29.870 --> 00:15:31.410
charge of professional relationships.
385
00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:35.010
So we have somebody whose job it is
386
00:15:35.010 --> 00:15:38.110
to be a glue.
387
00:15:39.350 --> 00:15:43.270
And so Susie and her team of assistants
388
00:15:43.270 --> 00:15:48.480
is always thinking, as Leslie said, like who
389
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.540
are the who are the mavens, like who
390
00:15:50.540 --> 00:15:51.240
are the top ones?
391
00:15:51.300 --> 00:15:52.160
What can we do for that?
392
00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:56.400
Here's a cool referral gift.
393
00:15:57.400 --> 00:15:59.480
Find out where somebody went to college, go
394
00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:01.680
to their college bookstore online, buy them the
395
00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:03.940
outrageously overpriced sweatshirt or hat that they would
396
00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:05.940
never actually buy for themselves because it's outrageously
397
00:16:05.940 --> 00:16:07.420
priced and just send it to them.
398
00:16:07.460 --> 00:16:08.920
Doesn't have to have your brand, your logo,
399
00:16:09.020 --> 00:16:09.220
whatever.
400
00:16:09.420 --> 00:16:10.960
Just like, hey, for me to you, you
401
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:11.760
went to William & Mary.
402
00:16:12.180 --> 00:16:13.060
Here's a cool thing.
403
00:16:14.540 --> 00:16:18.060
So I think that's that's that's the biggest
404
00:16:18.060 --> 00:16:18.780
is systems.
405
00:16:19.060 --> 00:16:20.120
And you don't have to be the one
406
00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:20.460
to do it.
407
00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:21.920
So we have people that do a lot
408
00:16:21.920 --> 00:16:22.540
of that stuff.
409
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:24.180
And then a lot of it, you know,
410
00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:26.740
just it based on location, like someone who's
411
00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:29.060
geographically close to me is a lot better
412
00:16:29.060 --> 00:16:30.600
chance of having a live in-person lunch.
413
00:16:30.660 --> 00:16:32.180
Now, one of the things I do is
414
00:16:32.180 --> 00:16:33.740
we do lunch with Ben programs.
415
00:16:34.040 --> 00:16:35.440
So I'm going to have lunch every day
416
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:35.820
anyway.
417
00:16:37.140 --> 00:16:38.480
We can have a discussion.
418
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:39.760
We'll both have a meal.
419
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.460
Maybe I have a meal delivered to your
420
00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:42.860
place or you'll have a meal delivered to
421
00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:44.340
my place and we have a conversation.
422
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.480
So that's I found that really easy, efficient
423
00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:50.140
to do for folks who are not like
424
00:16:50.140 --> 00:16:54.060
right here in my northern Virginia market area.
425
00:16:55.180 --> 00:16:56.820
The last thing I'll say on this is
426
00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:58.440
it's not like you need a ton.
427
00:17:00.020 --> 00:17:02.620
Leslie said she has these top referral sources
428
00:17:02.620 --> 00:17:04.619
who keep sending her business.
429
00:17:06.220 --> 00:17:07.859
Let's make sure we don't lose them.
430
00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:08.900
All right.
431
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.319
I don't need to quadruple necessarily the number
432
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:14.000
of folks at that level.
433
00:17:15.560 --> 00:17:21.420
And so, again, it just isn't lawyers often,
434
00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:23.440
you know, they think they got to control
435
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.319
the whole market or be everywhere.
436
00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:28.540
I don't need somebody who can send them
437
00:17:28.540 --> 00:17:29.660
five matters a year.
438
00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:31.820
Think about that consistently.
439
00:17:32.340 --> 00:17:33.080
Good, good case.
440
00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:34.840
Good things that I like to work on.
441
00:17:35.760 --> 00:17:37.900
So, you know, I think people, you know,
442
00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:39.180
the best thing is you could sit down
443
00:17:39.180 --> 00:17:42.140
after this little podcast and webinar and kind
444
00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:43.980
of write out the ideas and the ideas
445
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:44.880
that you think what you could do over
446
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.620
the next 30, 60, 90 days to know
447
00:17:47.620 --> 00:17:50.520
who's referring, know who has referred in the
448
00:17:50.520 --> 00:17:51.800
past, but maybe isn't now.
449
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:54.120
And just think of a couple of things
450
00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:56.740
that you could do to regenerate that relationship.
451
00:17:59.690 --> 00:18:01.530
Leslie, what do you think, maybe from the
452
00:18:01.530 --> 00:18:05.510
relationship side, what would make you continue investing
453
00:18:05.510 --> 00:18:08.910
even if referral volume had temporarily declined?
454
00:18:10.750 --> 00:18:13.250
So I think you have to really look
455
00:18:13.250 --> 00:18:15.430
at each referral source and like Ben said,
456
00:18:15.590 --> 00:18:17.770
and repeating what I said before, you really
457
00:18:17.770 --> 00:18:19.350
only need a few.
458
00:18:20.250 --> 00:18:23.090
And so I think you have to look
459
00:18:23.090 --> 00:18:26.270
at, you know, a few things.
460
00:18:26.850 --> 00:18:30.190
Has, is this someone who you are able
461
00:18:30.190 --> 00:18:30.850
to help back?
462
00:18:30.970 --> 00:18:33.150
And I go, I just keep going back
463
00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:36.050
to, it's all about you helping that referral
464
00:18:36.050 --> 00:18:38.190
source so much more than them helping you.
465
00:18:38.190 --> 00:18:40.990
And if you keep that as your focus,
466
00:18:41.370 --> 00:18:43.410
not what they can do for me, but
467
00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:45.370
what I can do for them, they will
468
00:18:45.370 --> 00:18:46.190
keep doing for you.
469
00:18:46.410 --> 00:18:48.230
You won't lose them as a referral source.
470
00:18:48.610 --> 00:18:51.650
So if someone kind of tapers off, it
471
00:18:51.650 --> 00:18:54.410
might be that there's really very little you
472
00:18:54.410 --> 00:18:55.410
can do back for them.
473
00:18:55.510 --> 00:18:56.410
And I'll give you an example.
474
00:18:57.410 --> 00:19:00.030
Financial advisors I meet because we do mergers
475
00:19:00.030 --> 00:19:00.810
and acquisitions.
476
00:19:01.030 --> 00:19:03.070
I meet financial advisors all the time who
477
00:19:03.070 --> 00:19:06.910
think, you know, oh, Leslie's selling companies and
478
00:19:06.910 --> 00:19:08.450
then the companies are making, you know, the
479
00:19:08.450 --> 00:19:10.190
owners made a lot of money and they
480
00:19:10.190 --> 00:19:12.290
turn around to Leslie and say, what should
481
00:19:12.290 --> 00:19:13.330
I do with this money now?
482
00:19:14.130 --> 00:19:15.950
And so she must be able to make
483
00:19:15.950 --> 00:19:17.250
referrals to financial advisors.
484
00:19:17.590 --> 00:19:19.770
That's not what happens in practice.
485
00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:22.370
In practice, most of these people have a
486
00:19:22.370 --> 00:19:24.970
financial advisor who's helped them with exit planning
487
00:19:24.970 --> 00:19:27.950
and they are not looking to me.
488
00:19:28.170 --> 00:19:31.910
So I'll get financial advisors that will, you
489
00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:33.470
know, on LinkedIn, I'd love to meet you,
490
00:19:33.470 --> 00:19:34.150
that kind of thing.
491
00:19:34.310 --> 00:19:35.730
And we have a really nice call.
492
00:19:36.370 --> 00:19:38.790
And then they send me some business because
493
00:19:38.790 --> 00:19:39.770
they think I'm going to be able to
494
00:19:39.770 --> 00:19:40.350
send back.
495
00:19:41.070 --> 00:19:42.030
I owe so much.
496
00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:43.750
When someone sends me business, my immediate thought
497
00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:44.850
is like, what can I do for them?
498
00:19:44.870 --> 00:19:45.530
I have to help them.
499
00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:49.770
So if I can't keep helping them, there
500
00:19:49.770 --> 00:19:51.790
may not be a referral source to keep
501
00:19:51.790 --> 00:19:54.630
cultivating because if I can't help them back,
502
00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:56.230
I don't blame them for moving on.
503
00:19:56.370 --> 00:19:58.410
If I send, you know, I send out
504
00:19:58.410 --> 00:20:01.350
a lot of trademark work because we work
505
00:20:01.350 --> 00:20:03.310
with all these startups and we don't do
506
00:20:03.310 --> 00:20:03.570
that.
507
00:20:04.210 --> 00:20:06.370
And so trademark lawyers are one of my
508
00:20:06.370 --> 00:20:08.270
best referral sources as well, because most of
509
00:20:08.270 --> 00:20:10.450
their clients are starting a business and need
510
00:20:10.450 --> 00:20:12.110
a business lawyer and are raising money.
511
00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:13.890
We do a lot of raises.
512
00:20:14.690 --> 00:20:17.390
And so, you know, if I so I
513
00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:19.310
spread the wealth, I've got four or five
514
00:20:19.310 --> 00:20:20.390
different trademark lawyers.
515
00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:23.030
But if if one of them, if I
516
00:20:23.030 --> 00:20:25.210
send and there is one I've sent her,
517
00:20:25.810 --> 00:20:27.290
this is actually a patent lawyer, I've sent
518
00:20:27.290 --> 00:20:30.590
her five matters this year and I have
519
00:20:30.590 --> 00:20:32.450
not seen one return referral.
520
00:20:33.390 --> 00:20:34.950
And so I'm not sending her any more
521
00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:35.330
matters.
522
00:20:35.710 --> 00:20:36.150
I'm not.
523
00:20:36.290 --> 00:20:37.350
I mean, if she, you know, if she
524
00:20:37.350 --> 00:20:37.730
sends me.
525
00:20:37.990 --> 00:20:40.610
So so that's the analysis to look at,
526
00:20:40.710 --> 00:20:43.890
you know, if is this worth putting putting
527
00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:46.950
more time and effort into to to refresh
528
00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:48.830
this relationship if I'm not really going to
529
00:20:48.830 --> 00:20:50.130
be able to do something to help them?
530
00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:53.690
And then and then also looking at what
531
00:20:53.690 --> 00:20:55.090
were the referrals that they gave you?
532
00:20:55.090 --> 00:20:56.670
Did they send you a lot of small
533
00:20:56.670 --> 00:20:57.090
matters?
534
00:20:57.470 --> 00:20:59.650
Did they send you a few very large
535
00:20:59.650 --> 00:21:00.110
matters?
536
00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:05.130
What were the what were these referrals like?
537
00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:07.430
Are they were these good humans, the clients
538
00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:07.990
they sent?
539
00:21:08.210 --> 00:21:10.010
Did they pay their bills on time?
540
00:21:10.150 --> 00:21:12.070
Did they treat your people with respect?
541
00:21:14.170 --> 00:21:16.530
And, you know, and then and then is
542
00:21:16.530 --> 00:21:18.870
the referral source someone who's a great connector
543
00:21:18.870 --> 00:21:21.190
so that that would sort of vote against
544
00:21:21.190 --> 00:21:24.330
all the other things, like maybe they haven't
545
00:21:24.330 --> 00:21:26.670
sent very much lately, but, you know, there's
546
00:21:26.670 --> 00:21:29.210
someone who's a central connector and can keep
547
00:21:29.210 --> 00:21:30.650
making introductions in the future.
548
00:21:31.030 --> 00:21:34.270
Then it's worth going back and saying, you
549
00:21:34.270 --> 00:21:36.050
know, as Ben said, you know, let's let's
550
00:21:36.050 --> 00:21:36.610
grab lunch.
551
00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:38.670
Let's, you know, haven't talked to you in
552
00:21:38.670 --> 00:21:40.690
a while or bigger.
553
00:21:40.850 --> 00:21:42.650
You know, I do the same thing, big
554
00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:44.150
gifts at the end of every year for
555
00:21:44.150 --> 00:21:47.850
my best referral sources and then giving them
556
00:21:47.850 --> 00:21:50.370
whatever you can always, for the most part,
557
00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:51.930
find something to do for people.
558
00:21:52.070 --> 00:21:54.130
So even if you can't make referrals back.
559
00:21:54.930 --> 00:21:57.430
Have an event and feature them on a
560
00:21:57.430 --> 00:22:01.050
on a panel and or like Ben said,
561
00:22:01.130 --> 00:22:04.750
recommend a restaurant, like find some way to
562
00:22:04.750 --> 00:22:05.230
help them.
563
00:22:05.370 --> 00:22:06.130
Don't just reach out.
564
00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:07.890
You know, it's so you always can detect
565
00:22:07.890 --> 00:22:08.330
fake.
566
00:22:08.550 --> 00:22:08.690
Right.
567
00:22:08.770 --> 00:22:10.710
And someone when someone reaches out and says,
568
00:22:10.870 --> 00:22:12.630
like, Leslie, I haven't seen you in a
569
00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:12.890
while.
570
00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:13.590
I miss you.
571
00:22:13.610 --> 00:22:14.810
And it's someone that you used to send
572
00:22:14.810 --> 00:22:15.590
a lot of business to.
573
00:22:15.670 --> 00:22:15.870
Right.
574
00:22:15.890 --> 00:22:16.870
Like, let's get together.
575
00:22:17.250 --> 00:22:19.170
It has to be genuine and you have
576
00:22:19.170 --> 00:22:20.290
to do something real for them.
577
00:22:21.630 --> 00:22:23.250
So let me just add on to that,
578
00:22:23.330 --> 00:22:25.230
because Leslie just made a really, really great
579
00:22:25.230 --> 00:22:30.290
point, which is the currency of referrals does
580
00:22:30.290 --> 00:22:32.150
not always have to be a client or
581
00:22:32.150 --> 00:22:32.550
a matter.
582
00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:34.010
It can be other things.
583
00:22:34.290 --> 00:22:37.030
For a very quick example, in our automobile
584
00:22:37.030 --> 00:22:41.550
accident side of the practice, we get clients
585
00:22:41.550 --> 00:22:42.970
referred to us from chiropractors.
586
00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:43.270
Right.
587
00:22:43.510 --> 00:22:45.170
But the nature of our practice is a
588
00:22:45.170 --> 00:22:46.470
lot of most of folks who come to
589
00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:48.170
us have already have treatment established.
590
00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:50.150
We can't send a lot of cases back
591
00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:50.270
to clients.
592
00:22:50.270 --> 00:22:51.050
Chiropractors.
593
00:22:51.310 --> 00:22:53.730
But what my son did, Brian, is he
594
00:22:53.730 --> 00:22:56.130
went on a listening tour and he asked
595
00:22:56.130 --> 00:22:57.810
chiropractors, like, what do you hate about lawyers
596
00:22:57.810 --> 00:23:01.850
and what bothers you about people like us?
597
00:23:01.850 --> 00:23:02.790
And he got a list.
598
00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:05.050
He then we then created a system which
599
00:23:05.050 --> 00:23:06.070
was based upon that.
600
00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:10.230
So the currency was, hey, here's the number
601
00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:12.490
of days are averaged from end of treatment
602
00:23:12.490 --> 00:23:13.730
to settlement of the case.
603
00:23:14.570 --> 00:23:17.870
Currency, not a not a patient.
604
00:23:17.870 --> 00:23:18.190
Right.
605
00:23:18.710 --> 00:23:21.570
A faster payment of your medical bills.
606
00:23:22.270 --> 00:23:24.550
Hey, we'll never ask you to discount your
607
00:23:24.550 --> 00:23:27.670
your medical bill fees unless we have already
608
00:23:27.670 --> 00:23:28.990
discounted our legal fees.
609
00:23:29.110 --> 00:23:31.870
And we'll show you exactly what we did.
610
00:23:32.610 --> 00:23:34.210
Hey, you need to update.
611
00:23:34.350 --> 00:23:35.690
You want to know we're always make sure
612
00:23:35.690 --> 00:23:37.430
we'll keep you advised if you want to
613
00:23:37.430 --> 00:23:37.770
know.
614
00:23:38.250 --> 00:23:40.670
So it's just I don't want people to
615
00:23:40.670 --> 00:23:42.350
miss this point that she made, which is
616
00:23:42.350 --> 00:23:44.430
it doesn't it is being helpful.
617
00:23:44.650 --> 00:23:45.310
Her central point.
618
00:23:45.310 --> 00:23:48.930
It is not always necessarily a client.
619
00:23:49.070 --> 00:23:51.630
So we run a podcast company on my
620
00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:52.410
podcast, right?
621
00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:54.450
We run events, as I said, like come
622
00:23:54.450 --> 00:23:55.290
speak at my event.
623
00:23:55.450 --> 00:23:55.550
Come.
624
00:23:55.670 --> 00:23:56.790
Here's a ticket to my event.
625
00:23:57.290 --> 00:23:59.030
Like, here's a book that I think is
626
00:23:59.030 --> 00:24:00.610
really cool that you might want to read
627
00:24:00.610 --> 00:24:02.770
about business or something like that.
628
00:24:02.770 --> 00:24:04.910
Or, you know, here's a here's someone I'm
629
00:24:04.910 --> 00:24:05.490
going to go see.
630
00:24:05.550 --> 00:24:06.870
You want to come with me to this
631
00:24:06.870 --> 00:24:07.170
event.
632
00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:10.830
So there's lots of ways if you put
633
00:24:10.830 --> 00:24:13.370
your mind to it to just go back
634
00:24:13.370 --> 00:24:15.590
to this human connection and to Leslie's point
635
00:24:15.590 --> 00:24:17.730
of being helpful to somebody else.
636
00:24:18.530 --> 00:24:19.250
All right.
637
00:24:19.790 --> 00:24:21.970
Ben, let's start with you again.
638
00:24:22.150 --> 00:24:24.630
I want to move now into what happens
639
00:24:24.630 --> 00:24:28.270
immediately after the referral arrives.
640
00:24:29.110 --> 00:24:35.590
So what sequence keeps the first 24 hour
641
00:24:35.590 --> 00:24:39.130
response moving when ownership of the referral handoff
642
00:24:39.130 --> 00:24:43.150
could otherwise become unclear between intake staff, attorneys
643
00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:43.930
and the referral?
644
00:24:43.930 --> 00:24:44.230
So.
645
00:24:45.250 --> 00:24:48.350
So we do a lot like every we
646
00:24:48.350 --> 00:24:50.370
run EOS, entrepreneur operating systems.
647
00:24:50.470 --> 00:24:51.770
Every week we have a 90 minute meeting.
648
00:24:51.930 --> 00:24:53.270
Part of what we're looking at is intake
649
00:24:53.270 --> 00:24:56.590
intake numbers and new referral sources, new and
650
00:24:56.590 --> 00:24:57.650
returning referral sources.
651
00:24:57.790 --> 00:25:00.090
So there is an there is an automated
652
00:25:00.090 --> 00:25:02.250
system that takes place.
653
00:25:02.770 --> 00:25:05.390
There is my happiness director writing a note
654
00:25:05.390 --> 00:25:07.710
and doing some investigation and sending something.
655
00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:09.670
And then, you know, when I get I've
656
00:25:09.670 --> 00:25:11.430
got these little cards that live like big
657
00:25:11.430 --> 00:25:12.670
little personal note cards.
658
00:25:12.670 --> 00:25:16.090
So it's three things that that are happening
659
00:25:16.090 --> 00:25:17.670
kind of simultaneously.
660
00:25:18.250 --> 00:25:21.050
And we've got a good again, a good
661
00:25:21.050 --> 00:25:24.970
tech stack that makes sure that whether we
662
00:25:24.970 --> 00:25:28.530
accept the case or reject it or whatever,
663
00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:30.910
because oftentimes we're paying referral and most time
664
00:25:30.910 --> 00:25:31.910
we're paying referral fees, right?
665
00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:34.610
It's a contingent fee, personal injury and disability
666
00:25:34.610 --> 00:25:35.050
practice.
667
00:25:35.290 --> 00:25:36.490
So we're paying referral fees.
668
00:25:36.490 --> 00:25:39.890
And so we're we're letting folks know and
669
00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:43.190
my team will let them know, hey, here's
670
00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:44.130
what's going to happen next.
671
00:25:44.230 --> 00:25:45.570
I'm sending them something personal.
672
00:25:45.950 --> 00:25:47.430
I have a huge collection of books because
673
00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:48.630
of what I do in great local marketing.
674
00:25:48.790 --> 00:25:51.130
We literally have hundreds of books that we've
675
00:25:51.130 --> 00:25:52.170
collected over the years.
676
00:25:52.290 --> 00:25:53.990
And I'll go find if I find out
677
00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:56.490
something about you, like I'll go find something
678
00:25:56.490 --> 00:25:58.730
or maybe it's a recent book I've read.
679
00:25:59.170 --> 00:26:00.510
We always have extra copies.
680
00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:02.390
So, hey, here's a cool book that I
681
00:26:02.390 --> 00:26:04.270
that I read, I think might be useful.
682
00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:05.690
Not everyone's a book reader, but they should
683
00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:05.910
be.
684
00:26:06.530 --> 00:26:10.490
So all of those things happen at at
685
00:26:10.490 --> 00:26:11.090
once.
686
00:26:11.370 --> 00:26:13.570
And we don't miss it because.
687
00:26:14.370 --> 00:26:17.630
We got organized tech and every week we
688
00:26:17.630 --> 00:26:18.570
are eyeballing the list.
689
00:26:18.710 --> 00:26:20.470
And then one other thing, just back to
690
00:26:20.470 --> 00:26:23.750
what Leslie was talking about just a minute
691
00:26:23.750 --> 00:26:26.630
ago about referral sources going dry or whatever,
692
00:26:27.050 --> 00:26:29.050
is that we ask, you know, are there
693
00:26:29.050 --> 00:26:29.770
signs of life?
694
00:26:29.990 --> 00:26:31.970
But we make sure to not just rely
695
00:26:31.970 --> 00:26:32.590
on the tech.
696
00:26:32.790 --> 00:26:33.090
Right.
697
00:26:33.270 --> 00:26:34.990
So we'll go around the room.
698
00:26:34.990 --> 00:26:37.390
So my long term disability team, well, I
699
00:26:37.390 --> 00:26:37.970
hear we got this.
700
00:26:38.250 --> 00:26:40.030
We haven't heard from Billy in a long
701
00:26:40.030 --> 00:26:40.410
time.
702
00:26:40.510 --> 00:26:41.410
Anybody heard from Billy?
703
00:26:41.650 --> 00:26:42.830
And somebody I said, oh, yeah, I just
704
00:26:42.830 --> 00:26:44.030
had a conversation with Billy last week.
705
00:26:44.090 --> 00:26:44.850
We talked about a case.
706
00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:45.510
It really wasn't right.
707
00:26:45.590 --> 00:26:47.030
So that's a sign of life.
708
00:26:47.650 --> 00:26:49.310
And that might not show up in the
709
00:26:49.310 --> 00:26:51.430
tech, but it's still embedded in the humans.
710
00:26:52.330 --> 00:26:55.370
So we look, there's a lot of good
711
00:26:55.370 --> 00:26:55.670
lawyers.
712
00:26:55.790 --> 00:26:56.810
There's a lot of good lawyers in our
713
00:26:56.810 --> 00:26:57.630
space, obviously.
714
00:26:58.530 --> 00:27:01.330
I think we are probably, you know, we
715
00:27:01.330 --> 00:27:03.930
aim to be best in class at this
716
00:27:03.930 --> 00:27:04.330
stuff.
717
00:27:04.330 --> 00:27:04.950
Right.
718
00:27:05.070 --> 00:27:08.430
Because it is the soft skills that require
719
00:27:08.430 --> 00:27:12.030
a team that understands the mission is aligned,
720
00:27:12.290 --> 00:27:14.670
can carry it so that Ben doesn't have
721
00:27:14.670 --> 00:27:15.270
to do it all.
722
00:27:15.810 --> 00:27:17.190
Leslie doesn't have to do it all.
723
00:27:17.270 --> 00:27:17.570
Right.
724
00:27:18.270 --> 00:27:22.150
That's what we've developed and we're really good
725
00:27:22.150 --> 00:27:22.290
at.
726
00:27:22.530 --> 00:27:25.030
And that's reflected in our revenues, where 80
727
00:27:25.030 --> 00:27:27.390
percent of our money comes because some person,
728
00:27:27.730 --> 00:27:31.290
even being mentioned our name, the client may
729
00:27:31.290 --> 00:27:32.790
then go through the tech stack, right, go
730
00:27:32.790 --> 00:27:33.750
to website or whatever.
731
00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:36.770
But if you dig, it's because somebody mentioned
732
00:27:36.770 --> 00:27:37.210
our name.
733
00:27:37.650 --> 00:27:39.710
And that's a pretty cool place to be
734
00:27:39.710 --> 00:27:42.090
in a PI space, particularly, which is so
735
00:27:42.090 --> 00:27:43.570
uber competitive.
736
00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:50.970
Let's say you had to establish one minimum
737
00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:52.890
24 hour service standard.
738
00:27:53.550 --> 00:27:54.450
What would it be?
739
00:27:56.110 --> 00:27:58.250
One minimum 24 hour standard would be that
740
00:27:58.250 --> 00:28:01.670
something handwritten goes out in the real mail.
741
00:28:03.270 --> 00:28:05.570
To the person who sent us a referral,
742
00:28:05.670 --> 00:28:07.770
particularly if they are a new referral source,
743
00:28:08.850 --> 00:28:11.090
it may have a new version, they get
744
00:28:11.090 --> 00:28:12.050
the note and the book.
745
00:28:13.870 --> 00:28:15.950
Leslie sends me the third case this month,
746
00:28:16.610 --> 00:28:18.750
she's still going to get a handwritten thank
747
00:28:18.750 --> 00:28:22.070
you, thank you for me, because nobody's mailing.
748
00:28:23.150 --> 00:28:26.210
So just showing up in the mail with
749
00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:27.950
something that you actually took the time to
750
00:28:27.950 --> 00:28:28.310
write.
751
00:28:29.210 --> 00:28:31.030
Is a differentiator.
752
00:28:32.090 --> 00:28:33.730
At least it's worked for us.
753
00:28:36.120 --> 00:28:37.440
That's a great answer, Ben.
754
00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:39.920
Leslie, let's get back to you.
755
00:28:40.340 --> 00:28:43.860
Where does quarterly referral outreach most often break
756
00:28:43.860 --> 00:28:46.380
down when we see firm leaders lacking ownership,
757
00:28:47.100 --> 00:28:50.980
leaving referral partners to experience the inconsistency firsthand?
758
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:55.300
Yeah, I mean, it happens all the time.
759
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.720
So I think it happens all the time.
760
00:28:58.490 --> 00:29:02.760
I think to Ben's point, he's made a
761
00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:06.060
bunch of points about not, you don't have
762
00:29:06.060 --> 00:29:06.760
to do everything.
763
00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:09.560
I think having a team is so important
764
00:29:09.560 --> 00:29:13.440
and delineating roles so that, you know, to
765
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:17.820
prevent a scenario where someone isn't immediately responsive
766
00:29:17.820 --> 00:29:21.820
to that referral source, drops the ball, all
767
00:29:21.820 --> 00:29:22.120
of that.
768
00:29:22.260 --> 00:29:24.180
So I love the happiness.
769
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:25.380
What is it?
770
00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:25.940
Your happiness?
771
00:29:25.940 --> 00:29:27.100
Happiness director.
772
00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:27.800
Director.
773
00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:29.000
I love it.
774
00:29:29.340 --> 00:29:31.660
And I've actually, it's so interesting because I,
775
00:29:32.260 --> 00:29:34.660
so my firm now has 10 lawyers and
776
00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:36.420
three paralegals and we're about to add another
777
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:37.320
one, another lawyer.
778
00:29:37.800 --> 00:29:42.100
And as we've grown, that started happening where,
779
00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:44.580
you know, I pride myself, I bring in
780
00:29:44.580 --> 00:29:45.040
all the business.
781
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.100
So I pride myself on having relationship, very
782
00:29:48.100 --> 00:29:50.340
strong relationships with with the clients.
783
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:52.600
And you just can't.
784
00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:54.580
I mean, at some point there comes a
785
00:29:54.580 --> 00:29:56.760
time and I was going through accounts receivable.
786
00:29:56.860 --> 00:29:58.320
I remember the first time this happened a
787
00:29:58.320 --> 00:29:58.880
few years ago.
Want help growing your law firm?
Get a website analysis and a 30-minute marketing strategy session with our team — the same insights discussed in Episode 40, applied to your firm.