Working with Gen Y clients with Karima Gulick

Welcome to Dominate Law, bringing you the best insights and experiences of successful personalities to help your law firm grow exponentially. Hosted by Naranja, CEO of Echo Marketing, you are listening to Dominate Law podcast series, a game changer podcast for lawyers.

Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the Dominate Law Podcast show. This is the place where lawyers in private practice come and learn about how to create a bigger future in terms of time, money, purpose, and relationships. Why these four things? Because we all want more happiness as human beings. And these four things are the areas that we work on when we wanna create more happiness. Uh, I'm Reio host. In addition to, uh, being the host of Dominate Law, I also run a marketing firm. We have 180 people. We help lawyers in private practice with digital marketing. We help them create, uh, you know, an awesome online presence. We manage everything from reputation, and of course we make the phone ring. So, uh, that's me. Now, I'm super excited to have with me, uh, Karima Gulick. Uh, she's a very interesting person. Uh, I had the opportunity to get to know her a little bit. She's the host of the podcast, gen Y Lawyer Plus. Um, she's somebody who was an engineer, uh, aeronautical engineer for eight years, and then she decided to, you know, go into the legal profession. So, um, c Karima, welcome to the show. Uh, I'm super excited to have you today.

Thank you. Re thank you so much for having me on the show. Uh, I'm happy to be here.

And, um, the reason I wanted to, you know, talk to you more is because, uh, few reasons. One is, uh, I feel, uh, your story of, you know, kind of not making law your first choice, but rather the second choice, but, uh, uh, conscious choice, right? You know, you are an engineer doing really well, successful, and, uh, you know, it's not like you're starving or anything, and then you decided to take the stand. So why did you do that? So, that's something I wanna talk about. Second, you probably are an expert in Gen y lawyers and gen y clients, uh, because you have been talking to Gen y lawyers for a while now with your podcast. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so I wanna understand the Gen y, I wanna understand the mindset of the Gen y lawyer versus, you know, maybe an older lawyer or, you know, and so forth, the mindset of the Gen y client. So the more you understand people, you know, you can influence them, you can work better with them. So those are the two areas that I want to get into. So, uh, let's get started. If, if you're okay with it.

Yeah, absolutely. Nian. So, um, back to your first point. That's right. Most people like come into law and then they decide, you know what? That's not what I wanna do. And start, uh, switching or start with a side hustle and then go into something completely different. Um, this is my second career. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I, I came to it from an, an engineering background. I, growing up, I was always fascinated by aircraft and how things fly, and spacecrafts and just space exploration in general. So I decided to dedicate, uh, my undergrad and my career to trying to learn and understand how those things fly. How can we define gravity? How can we actually go and, and do some space exploration? Um, to and for bachelor's in, um, aerospace engineering. Loved my time there. Loved being surrounded by like-minded people. And then once I graduated while I was in school, I, I did a few internships, some with the airlines, some with manufacturing companies.

And, uh, after I graduated from undergrad, I started working as an engineer. And at first it was fun 'cause I was learning new things, but then things started to be redundant and, uh, look the same basically every single day. Um, and I know we were talking about, uh, what, what got me to change, and I think it was that it was, it was the lack of challenge or learning new things. Um, uh, in the aerospace industry, uh, is is very, uh, it's very risk averse. It's very set in stones, and there aren't that many innovations going in every single day, especially if you're working for, uh, a large company. Um, they, they try, they have a set way of doing things, and that's the way it is. Um, and most companies in that field are larger companies. Um, there are some smaller ones that are doing things different.

And actually, that's some of my best and favorite clients. Uh, but for the most part it was, it was a pretty risk averse industry. Um, and like I said, I love learning new things, and I realized that, um, most of my days started being looking the same, and I couldn't really develop, like, be in the, in the innovation. And that cut cutting edge of technology the way I wanted to be. So I pitched an idea to the company that I worked at. Uh, we had an innovation council where they evaluate your idea, and if they thought that it was good and it would make some money and it was not too hard to implement, then um, they went forward with it. Uh, and after I pitched that idea, it was actually for something pretty cool. Um, it was before the heads up displays and, um, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but basically, um, my idea was when you're flying, you could overlook on, you know, on your little window, um, and see an over lead map on there.

So that was the first, the idea that I had. Um, and, uh, turned into something different with, with heads up display. But, um, that was the first one. And the second one was to reduce, uh, weight on the aircraft instead of having single monitors in front of you have one big one, and then depending on where you are, see things differently. And, um, right now, actually something similar is being done in the gaming world, where two people can be sitting down, uh, on the same couch, looking at the same tv, and then depending on where you're sitting, you could see a different screen, which is really cool. So anyways, fast forward, um, I, I was invited to come back to the Innovation Council and, uh, loved hearing new ideas, and it was very intellectually, intellectually stimulating. So, um, I decided maybe problem law is the way to go.

Maybe I can, you know, help these people translate their technical, um, inventions into something that they can protect and make money off of. So that's, that's how it started. Um, uh, for the past four, I mean, for the last four years of, of, uh, my career as an engineer, I was also going to school part-time at night. Um, because law school is expensive, I didn't want any loans. And, um, and I, like you said, I, I had a good career, so it was hard to walk away from everything completely. So baby steps I bridge to it. <laugh>.

That's awesome. So the key points I I heard from your journey is you came in, you, you, you, you got in touch with what you enjoy doing, and you noticed you love that stimulation, you love that creativity, and you felt, you know, the role that you're in didn't allow you to be creative, because it's pretty regulated and pretty, you know, risk averse, right? I mean, you don't make a million planes every year. You only make a few hundred or a few thousand even as a whole world. Yeah. So that the number of risks they're willing to take is not that high, but Exactly. You just wait for it. You just took on something that was available to you that you thought would let you be creative, which is that innovation council mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then one led to the other. And then you were sitting on the other side and listening to pictures, and you wanted to, you know, help entrepreneurs. You know, it doesn't matter if they work for your company or not, to get their ideas and, you know, do something with it because you found it very stimulating.

That's exactly right. Yep.

So, uh, are you glad you did that? I mean, you took risks, you went away from a very secure job, you, um, you know, went out of your comfort zone. But looking back, are you glad you followed your heart? You followed your passions

100% from where I'm sitting right now, yes. There were times, uh, when after law school, I started working for, for a law firm where, um, my, uh, basically the values didn't align. And during those times that I was literally thinking like, what have I done with my life? <laugh>, I spent all this money, and I went like, so much time and effort into this just to end up in somewhere worse. Um, but, but now that I'm on my own, I, I absolutely love it. It was, it was the right choice.

That's awesome. So, so I think the key point you made there is, um, aligning your values, aligning what you want with what you are doing. A lot of us don't really do what we wanna do. We kind of are afraid, and we just don't keep at it. So even though you became a lawyer, you decided you wanted to be your own lawyer, you wanted to have your own practice, because then you can have that creative feed freedom you were craving for in the first place. Going and working in a law firm that does things a certain way, you know, is not gonna give you that freedom.

E Exactly. And, and, and that was pretty much it. Um, I, I wanted to do things a certain way, continue learning, and I didn't have that much, that much freedom there. Um, but it was a great learning experience. Um, I, I learned a lot in those couple of years. Um, and it was what allowed me to, uh, have that confidence to be able to go out on my own and to potential clients and know what I'm talking about. Um, so I, I, I, it was, it was worth it as well.

<laugh>. Absolutely. You know, one thing I notice about successful people is they appreciate things. They look at the half full side of life. So you tend to, you come across to me like somebody who always, uh, looks at the half full side of life. Even if I give you a lemon, you'll try to make lemonade from it. Yeah. Is that something that you cultivated or is that something you kind of always were like,

I think I was always like this? Um, yeah. And in the engineering world, if they say that the glass is not half full or half empty, it's just twice the size, it should be <laugh>

<laugh>. Right. So you're optimistic, right? Yes. That makes sense. You feel, you believe that with your smarts and your brains, you can make it twice the side. It should, you know, it is

Exactly.

<laugh>. That's awesome. Let's now jump gears. So you have been doing this podcast. So tell me what inspired you to create this podcast? When did you create it? Kind of tell me a little bit and then we'll talk about Gen Y.

Sure, absolutely. So there's a little background story to that. I didn't actually create the podcast. Nicole Abood, who I think you'll be speaking with, uh, soon on your podcast as well, is the one who started it. Um, she, she was unhappy with how things were, and she knew that there was a way of making things different. So she started the podcast by, uh, interviewing, um, uh, millennials and attorneys who went out on their own, who were doing things differently. Um, and, uh, Nichol's a good friend of mine. So she came to me at some point saying, you know what, uh, it's time for her to end the show. And I knew that there were so many more conversations to be had. I was really sad. I might have shed a tear or two when she said that. So when she said it, um, she basically offered me to, to take over and continued all these great conversations. And, um, and I did, um, yeah. So she, she had the show for about two years before, before I took over. Um, but it, it's, it's amazing. Uh, I honestly highly recommend checking it out. A lot of great conversations where people doing things differently. If you're unhappy with something, assess it and go try to figure out how to change things and, and experiment. And so that's basically most of my conversations with people.

That's awesome. Let's, uh, jump right into gen wise. So, um, who are gen for the listeners who, who are kind of, you know, very detail oriented, a lot of lawyers are like, give us like a, you know, kind of as overview as po as you possibly can about who are genis versus, you know, the other generations.

Absolutely. So anyone born, um, between eighty three, eighty five all the way to 96, and sometimes they include all the way to two thousands, um, are, are Gen Y. But my sister being born in 96, I guarantee you she's not a Gen Y. She's definitely the next generation <laugh>. They were born with, uh, cell phones in their hands and things like that for us, um, we've been impacted by technology for most of our lives. Um, and I think that's probably what makes, what makes some of the difference between, between this generation, the Gen Ys and the generations before that.

Right. So if you are as a Gen Y, you are a Gen Y, correct? Yes,

I am.

So as a Gen Y, what, why do, what do you think makes you different or unique for perhaps from the previous generations, let's say, uh, maybe a baby boomer?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the first things, and I, I call it, I had like a quarter life crisis when I figured out that, like, when I realized that, um, maybe this engineering path is not for me, I need to do things differently. And, and question like that was unheard of unspeakable talking to people who were older than you, like, how dare you, you know, you have a good career, you went to school for this, you could change, you could become a consultant or do something different, but throwing everything away and doing something different was, was not really acceptable. And I think that's one thing that's different with, with millennials in, in general, is that capacity of, um, of looking at things and deciding, you know what, Noah, I kinda wanna do things a little my own way. And maybe this is not, um, the way it's been done before, but I, I can.

And, um, and w with, um, I think technology has also leveled to the playing fields a lot. I mean, you can start a business making, I don't know how much shops it's selling on third party websites like Amazon or things like that, without ever going anywhere, without ever leaving your room. So the possibilities nowadays are, are, are really endless. And I felt like long gone where the, the days of, of people staying at a job for 20, 30 years plus and getting pensions, I mean, that does not exist anymore. And I, I remember I started working, um, in February, 2009. That was when I first started, uh, my, my, my first full-time, um, job. And it was the worst of the economy. And I remember my first day at the job scene, people who had been working there for decades being walked up. Um, so, so I knew, I knew that things were changing. I knew that I wasn't gonna stay somewhere just because that was what I was supposed to do.

Right. That's interesting. I think, um, I'm, I think Gen X, so, which is, uh, the part of the millennial group, I guess. So a lot of the things you're talking about, I can relate to. I got fired four times because, um, you know, I, I just wouldn't keep my mouth shut. If I had an opinion, I would say it then, um, you know, in the typical middle management at that time, you know, made up of a lot of baby boomers, you're supposed to play the game and, you know, say, yes, sir, to the, your bosses and all that good stuff. And it just didn't work for me. I just couldn't do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, um, you made a good, good point. Like, if you were to talk to baby Boomer, like at least, uh, some of the people you talked to, it was almost like unheard of that you are giving up everything and going on a totally different path as opposed to, oh, well become a consultant or something like that.

Um, yeah. So that's interesting. Right? So where does that come from, do you think? Is it because we have seen our parents not have job security? You know, in the sense like, you know, like everybody thought, you know, gen, you know, jock for life or what happened, you know, people are laid off. So this idea of, I put in my time, I, I postpone, um, my life till I retire, kind of didn't make any sense to us because it didn't work out for our parents. I don't know. Where do you think this is coming from?

I think there's a lot of it, a lot of that. Um, I also think there's, but I, I, I don't know if that's applicable to everyone. My roommate, who was three years younger than me, was very happy in the corporate world. Her dad had worked somewhere for 50 years, and that's what she wanted to do. Um, so I don't think it affects everyone. Um, but I think if, if I, I don't know, if you've already thrown to questioning things and you go in and then the first week everything is turning upside down, then you start questioning that stability, that that whole model of, you know, well work at a good corporate environment, nine to five, you get to afford your white picket fence house and be happy. And, uh, and, and now, especially with millennials not being able to afford homes in, in most places, um, I, I think it makes you really question things a little harder.

Right. Right. And also, I think, um, the times are changing, right? I mean, um, uh, like I know the, even the younger generation, like a lot of the kids don't nowadays don't even care about learning how to drive or owning a car. Yeah. You know, because they have Uber, they press a button and Uber takes them anywhere, and it's cheaper than owning a car, you know, and they have Uber pool and all of this stuff mm-hmm <affirmative>. So they're like, why do I need this headache called a car? I need to pay insurance on it. I need to find a place to park it. And a lot of times we're living in a city that's expensive mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, and I don't use it most of the time anyways. Yeah. So I think the times are changing, so the way we look at things are changing, right. So I think that's maybe part of it. So even this idea of ownership, like, you know, it is not that, you know, important to people anyways, but I think this idea of purpose and meaning and doing something you enjoy seems like it's a common thing. It's even in your own life, right? You wanted to enjoy what you did, and you, you found it very stimulating to learn and grow and, um, do new things. Um, and that was important to you, and you're willing to put that first.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think nowadays it's very common for people to change things multiple times. Like, I mean, having a one career being 10 years or maybe a little less than that, and then moving on to something different, um, uh, we have to adjust, uh, to, to the economy's needs too.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think also this cassity has gone away from us, right? Because the baby boomers were raised by, uh, the great generation, the people who are in the world was right. And those people, you know, surviving was a big deal. So they taught their kids the baby boomers hard work, you know, put in your time, work till you're 65, you know, buy that house, you know, buy that cottage, retire, and then enjoy life. Yeah. But people like us, I mean, we live in a time when, you know, less than 2% of the people in the world are, you know, worrying about putting food on the table. Exactly. 98% of the people are not even thinking about the food. So really this idea that you're gonna starve and you're gonna die doesn't make any sense to us. Yeah. So we are not afraid of, you know, what could go wrong. We are more kind of optimistic, I guess. So we want to kind of, uh, wing it. We, I'm not saying everyone, but I'm just saying in, you know, like you said, you can't generalize, but there's more people who are willing to take chances and enjoy life and, you know, kind of, it's like life is a box of chocolates, kind of a mindset.

<laugh>. Yeah.

You know, so discover new things, travel, experience, uh, because we are not afraid of, oh, you're gonna starve tomorrow if you, you know, if you don't work for the next 30 years and kill yourself doing it. Interesting. Um, have you had any interesting guests on your show, uh, who really have, uh, interesting perspectives and insights?

Yeah, I've, I've had a few, actually. One of the, the last one, um, that I interviewed, um, Ali Lozano, she built a seven figure practice by herself. And, um, before she got to that point, she was basically at the point where she couldn't afford anything. She lost everything in a hurricane and realized that the way she was doing things was not working. And how she took things in charge started delegating, um, and, and made that for herself. And, um, she manages, she has five children, uh, runs a really successful practice, is an author. Um, so it's, it's examples like that that give us hope that, you know, what, there, there was a way of, of doing everything. And, um, one of the points that she brought up was, uh, that, that she doesn't really like the work life balance because I mean, it's, it's really like, work is part of the life. And, and I've interviewed a lot of guests that, that think that the work life balance is either does not exist or really, it's, it's, it's a myth. It's not attainable, or you have to sacrifice a lot in order for you to get that.

Yeah. I would love to interview. So maybe you could introduce, uh, the two of us offline. Yeah,

Absolutely.

Um, let me, um, yeah, I know a quote from, um, you know, what's the name? Um, uh, Jeff Bezos. He talks about this concept called work life harmony. And, uh, his point is, if you're miserable at work, you're gonna be, that you're gonna take that misery into your home. If you're miserable at home, you're gonna take that misery into your work. So

That's absolutely true.

It's not, it's not really about balance. You know, some days you only have to do two hours worth of work, but some days you may wanna do 14 because you're inspired to do it. Yeah. Assuming you're doing what you love. Right. If you don't do what you love, then all that goes out the window, assuming you're doing what you love. Um, then hopefully one should feed the other. One should make you happier with the other thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think you're right, this idea of balancing and compromising it doesn't make any sense anymore. Yeah. You know, um, so interesting. Have you experienced this in your life? Like, uh, this idea of, you know, not like, because you know, if you have the, I I love this, uh, you know, thing when somebody told me, if you have the wrong map, you're gonna get lost. So if you're in New York and you have a map of Geneva, you're gonna get lost. Yes. So if you have the wrong map, like, oh, it's work life balance, you are going to get lost, because it doesn't make any sense in the world we live in today, where everything is digital and everything is connected, and you know, like, you don't have to be at the office to do things. You can do it anyway, you know? So the idea of the separation is all like, made up.

Yeah, exactly.

So have you experienced this? Like, do you experience, um, one feeding the other and happiness in one makes you happy in the other place?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, ironically enough, I started my own practice because I wanted to have, you know, more time to do the things that I love outside of work. And I realized that a lot of the things that I really enjoy are that business development, working on my marketing and things like that. And, um, and, um, it's, it's funny, a couple of weeks ago, a good friend of mine from from childhood came to visit and I was supposed to stop working so I could, you know, take some time off and go travel with her a little bit and show her around. And I was filled with anxiety and realize that, that the reason why I started my own practice to be able to take time off whenever I want, was not really the reality of things. The reality of things is you get to have a little bit more freedom and structure in your day and, uh, what you wanna work on and how to prioritize things, but sometimes it's not very possible to just, you know, drop everything and take a few days off. Uh, uh, you, you really have to work to to work that, and especially when you're out on your own.

Right. Right. Let's, um, talk about your clients. Do you have clients who are gen wise? Like, what are they looking for that you think somebody listening to this podcast should be aware of?

Yeah, absolutely. Arian. So, um, when I started the practice, I had this image in the back of my head, and maybe at some point that might happen. I know a lot of attorneys were I currently doing that. Uh, but I wanted to have a practice where I could just work from anywhere I wanted in the world. Um, somewhere like a, mostly a virtual practice, even though I have an office now. 'cause I really wanted that extra separation. <laugh>, it was, it started to bleed a little too much into my life, having my desk in the next room. Um, but, um, what I was, what I was saying is, um, oh, I just lost my train of thought.

Yeah. You're talking about, um, you had a vision, a new world about having a practice where you can work anywhere and

E Exactly. Yeah. So most of my marketing was, um, uh, online marketing. I did a lot of, uh, offline marketing going and meeting people that I enjoy meeting. Um, but, uh, a lot of my clients I've never met in person, um, they contact me and I managed to create a little intake that I can actually sign on someone in less than 10 minutes right now. Um, and all from the comfort of their couch. They don't even have, they can actually do it on their, their cell phone. But it, it took a lot of work in getting to that. And, um, now I'm realizing that what took me a little work is what most people expect. Um, I mean, having to, when I first started that I would send them an engagement letter, they'd have to print it out and then sign it, and then send it back to me.

And then, you know, either like send them a link for repayment or things like that. It was very disjointed. And, um, or I talked to a lot of other attorneys where the, um, they need to see, verify the identity of the person. So they have to come in, in person, sign the things, make sure that it's the right person and things like that before, before they move on. But in a lot of other industries, that's not the norm anymore. You know, you, you want a subscription for food delivered to your doorstep, uh, something that you're gonna adjust in your body, you're not gonna go. Um, and, and it's, it's a lot easier and smoother, uh, signing up for, for things like that than it is to sign up for legal services. So, um, I, I worked on, on that a little bit, but I, I'm happy to hear that my clients, uh, you know, appreciate it and expect that for from attorneys nowadays. Just to give one example.

Yeah. I had a story to share with you. Like my 12-year-old daughter yesterday, I was, after I finished work, she comes to me, she opens up my laptop and she pulls up my amazon.page and she goes, can you, can I buy this? And, uh, literally, you know, I said, yes, <laugh>. Two seconds later, she presses the button and Amazon says, you'll have this delivered to your house tomorrow at 4:00 PM <laugh>. Yes.

<laugh>,

You know, like, imagine like the old days, she has to, you know, talk to me and convince me to drive her somewhere. And mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's so easy. It's so hard. Amazon has made it so easy that even a 10-year-old can make me do, you know, like, make you do something because it's so easy.

Exactly. You

Know, it's, it's crazy easy. Right. And the thing we have to remember is humans don't have, they don't, they're not different people when they're interacting with Amazon versus when they're interacting with you a lawyer. They're the same human being. So why heca we having all these barriers to make it hard for people to work with us? Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Yes.

It doesn't make any sense.

Yeah. It doesn't,

This is amazing. Can you tell us how you have made it easy for people to kind of sign up in 10 minutes?

Yeah, sure. Um, so I am, I love systems. I'm, I have a business engineering background, but I, I realize that a lot of people, I do mainly two things. I do patents, and then I do trademarks. So depending on, uh, which one they come in for, I have forms already ready. Um, I use, there, there are so many websites out there, some of them for free, that you can use, um, and, and, uh, software out there that, that you can use to make things a lot easier. It doesn't need to be specifically, um, legal software. I mean, and legal software is catching up, but it's still way be behind everything else. So, for example, I went on job form.com. I created like a few forms. So I send my clients a little link. They can fill out that form for me, um, just for the name, uh, you know, the, their address, email address and things like that.

Then they get, um, automatically through Zapier, I have a whole automated process. They get an engagement letter that is tailored to them. And with Adobe Sign, I can actually see when they open that engagement letter, when they send it, and then there's a third link for them to process their payments. So, um, that's, that's basically it. Uh, I feel like the hardest part is really just getting, like, talking to the people, which I enjoy doing. Um, I'd rather do their first conversation by, by phone, get to understand their business and what we're walking into. And that's where most of the bulk of the work is. But just someone on shouldn't take more than 10 minutes.

This is amazing. So you've made it super easy for them. So they ring, ring, phone rings, you talk to them? Or do they set up a meeting to talk to you? Like, do you have a link where they can click on a link and,

Yeah. So I have that as well. Um, I currently switched, uh, to having a receptionist. Uh, and, uh, they, they answer my phone. If I'm available to take the calls, then they do it otherwise. But I, I like to, I like to have little blocks of, of work where I can just focus on the work. Um, so they'll schedule a little 15 minute with me, and then I talk to them. My receptionist has already, uh, taken down their, all the information that I need from them, what it's regarding, how they heard about me, what, where I can, uh, reach them out. And then once I talk to them, I try to offer something of value. And I think that's the hardest, that's like the biggest part, like trying to offer something of value on that first call and trying to get to know your clients.

It's not just about you. It's really about them. This is their businesses, it's their baby. Um, so if you ask, I mean, people love to talk about themselves and love to talk about what they do, um, and, and their businesses, especially if they own a business. So just trying to understand where they're coming from, who they are and things like that. Um, trying to offer a little something of value. I know they don't share legal advice or anything like that for free. I completely agree. But still, um, there's a point where you can draw the line. If it's not gonna take more than 10 minutes for you to answer a question, it's not gonna hurt, and they'll appreciate it. Um, so, so that's, that's really where, where the magic happens. Yeah.

So let's talk about this for a minute. I'm a marketing guy, and marketing is about influencing people. So one of the people I love is Dr. Robert Child who wrote a book on influence mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, one of the principles he talks about is called liking. We tend to do business with those we like mm-hmm <affirmative>. Why do we like somebody for a couple of three reasons. One is, um, we like them because they are, they care about our success. You know what I mean? Yes. They're about me, me, me. They're about you, you, you. How can I help you? How can I, you know, serve you? So you talked about really offering some value right off the bat. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Second thing is we like people who are interested in us. I mean, the book, uh, how to Influence People and Win Friends by Dale Carne, it talks about be interested in others. You know, you don't have to say one thing about you. They will think you're the best person on the earth. Yeah. Just by being interested in them and what they want and what their dreams are. So can I kind of go little bit deeper into this conversation where Yeah,

Absolutely. Yes. I love this stuff. So <laugh>.

So yeah. So let's kind of, uh, can you kind of share with me a real conversation you had and, and what the client wanted and how, how, how you went about talking to him or her and, and what happened?

Yeah, sure. So we'll take for example, like, um, an example of someone who either invented something or has like a business and they wanna trademark their name or logo. Um, and usually the first conversation will start with like, all right, well, um, you know, is this still a good time for you? You wanna make sure that you're accommodating to them, even though I, I don't know, because I know some, some attorneys will, will act like they're doing people a favor by, by having them talk to them. It's not, I mean, it's, it's a mutual respect and, and understanding. So there's that step. And then I will start asking about whether they start.

I wanna, I wanna kind emphasize on that. Like, it's almost like, I don't want to talk to you, but I'm so important, so busy, but I, I'll just doing your tiny favor. It's almost like you turn people off with that attitude and that mindset.

E exactly. So having an attorney ask you, even though you, they scheduled a time whether it's still a good time for them, and sometimes it just takes a, oh, can you give just a minute? I need to like, lock myself in a room, or something like that. But, um, but it's just being a little accommodating. It's still that same window of time. You're not doing anything extra. It's just all about really the delivery. Right. Um, so, so there is that first part. The second part is I really try to understand, uh, most of my, uh, most of my clients are business owners, so I try to understand their business, what their business is about, how long they've been in business, and then I try to understand what their goal is with what they came into me for. So, all right. Do you want, you've wanna pass?

So one, one second. So first one is you get into their life, you kind of get into their dreams. What is their business about? What are they trying to accomplish? So you're kind of asking them to share their dreams with you. And the minute they share their dreams with you, they trust you, right? Yes. Who do you share your dreams with? Somebody you trust Now, when you, they trust you, they're more likely, likely to listen to you. We listen, we listen to people who we trust. So that's brilliant. I mean, from a marketing point of view, you are asking them for their dreams. And of course, we love to talk about ourselves and our dreams, and you're giving them an outlet. And, and the more you listen and empathize and understand their dreams, the more they trust you.

Exactly. And then the other thing is I try to gauge because I mean, I, I do a lot of online marketing and sometimes I get people who can't really afford my services. Right? So if they can't, I'm not gonna push them, like to sign up for something that they can't. So I will either guide them or say, you know what? These are some of the resources that you can use until you are at the point where, you know, you, and I can't tell you how many people like come back months later saying, you know what? Now I have the money. Can we please work together? You know,

Couple of interesting points and, uh, I was, I was talking to you about this other gentleman I talked to with indie law, right? He has this phrase he supposedly share has with his client, which is, um, till you have something of, uh, till you're making money, it's not worth protecting. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Right?

Exactly. So you're telling them the truth, right? I mean, if they're not making a money, then what's the point of spending $10,000 protecting something that's not making you even $1? And that's

Absolutely right.

And the fact that you are honest with them, and you save them money by saying, Hey, you don't need to pay me right now. They trust you more than, so when they need protection, when they are successful, who they're gonna think of the honest guy, honest G Gal who helped them, uh, without judging them and looking down on them, uh, or the person who didn't. So that's an important point. So you are using that call to kind of weed out people, but in a very respectful, very nurturing way as opposed to in a, in a judgmental way. Nor are you wasting your time taking, going down this rabbit hole that goes nowhere.

E Exactly. And that's, that's exactly right. And then, um, especially for, for the patent work, there are so many statutory bars that people don't know. So for example, if you came up with an invention, have been selling it for a year, um, or it's been on sale for a year, that's it. You are done. You can't get a patent on that thing anymore because you've, you've, you've gone over that mark, or if you've shared it even on social media these days, after that one year mark, that's it. So I just try to give them a little bit of value, like, okay, maybe look into this, this is a cheaper way of protecting it. Go test the market. Go see whether it's something that's, that's worth spending all this money on before, before coming to me for that. So,

So you, you focus on them. You're not worried about, oh, I'm gonna make that 3000. You want to add value? So that's what you made a point about. Give them value, make sure that they get something for their time. Make sure that they feel that they made the right decision by calling you, because it's not about me, me, me, Karima, uh, it's about them.

That's, that's exactly right. And I think it's easier when you love working with business owners and you get excited about when you're on an entrepreneur at heart and, and get excited about people starting businesses or, or continuing to develop their businesses. It's, it's, it's a lot more fun.

Yeah. So keep going. So keep going. So I know I keep interrupting you and kind of No, no,

You're good. <laugh>. Yeah, no. So, so that's, that's basically what I wanted to say. It's, um, and then also find the method that works for you. I love talking to people on the phone. I would much rather pick up the phone and talk to someone than fire up an email and have to proofread myself a few times and, and all that. So, so that's my, my go-to method. Um, if that doesn't work for you, then maybe finding someone to do the intake for you. It doesn't have to be all you

Yeah. Know, I wanna kind of emphasize on you. I, I would kind of make an argument that phone works because, um, we, like, it's hard to, like somebody on an email mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because there's no relationship, there's no two way communication, right? Yeah. Two, they're not hiring your intake person, they're hiring you mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. So it doesn't matter whether they like your intake person or not, because they know the intake person is not gonna do any work. Yeah. So, I, I would argue that that 15 minutes of course, you have to screen it well. So maybe in your form you can ask them, you know, the size of their business or what their revenues were, I don't know. So you could hopefully screen it better, but, but I do think if you have the right person in front of you, giving them the time to get, make them feel like you care about them, and you adding value to them and getting them to like you is so powerful. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because I know some people get caught up in all these marketing jargons and they talk about email marketing and automatic marketing and all this nonsense, and then they realize there is a human being at the other end. There's no machine writing the check, there's a human being. So human beings have to, like you, they have to think, you know what you're talking about. They have to think that you care about them.

Yeah. No, absolutely not. And then back to, um, you mentioned that your, your, uh, your marketing business does online reputation. Another thing from being gorgeous and, and trying to offer something of value is, um, I've had so many consultations with people who didn't hire me, but when, and left, you know, uh, good reviews or things like that just because they felt safe and they felt like I gave them something of value. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so, so that's, I know there are people who will ask, uh, for, for one after those 15. I don't, um, I'll ask for one, usually towards the end of the business, I mean, of the matter with them, if they're happy with the work,

Right. You bring up another point, right? So this is called one of Julian's principles called reciprocity. Okay. You give them value at the end of the call, even though they didn't pay you, they feel almost obliged to do something nice. Back to you. It's human nature. Exactly.

So,

So, so they're much more likely. So I would kind of nudge you to say, Hey, uh, what do you think about this call? Oh, I love this call. I really, really appreciate it. I know we won't be able to work together right now, but I would, you would be the first one I'm gonna call when I'm ready to work with you. Right. Uh, when my business is ready to, you know, do that pat patent mm-hmm

<affirmative>. That's, yeah, that's exactly right. And then I've, I've had clients just that sometimes they forget about them, um, just thinking, you know, like, oh, it was just a one call. Maybe they're not, they're might not never go forward with it. And then a year later, uh, come back when, when I asked them to just to gimme, so Yeah. Or the information about their businesses. So,

So two ideas. One is you could, at the end of the conversation where they're thanking you for being that awesome person who helped them, uh, and they making a commitment to saying, I'll call you when my business is ready to, you know, for us to get a patent mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, you could ask them, Hey, do you mind, you know, taking a minute to write a review for us, and do you mind if I send you a quick text? Uh, and I promise you, if you ask them at that right moment, you will get awesome reviews mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, anyways, there are tools, you know, there's a tool called Grow My Reviews, and pretty much, uh, it lets you send that text to them, you know? Right. What

Is it called? I need to write that down. <laugh>.

It's called, uh, grow my reviews.com. Okay.

All

Right. And, uh, so the way it works is, um, this is the key thing. When these six principles are at play, it creates a moment of influence mm-hmm <affirmative>. In that moment, people are more likely to say yes or do what they said they're gonna do. Yeah. So, uh, when they're thanking you for your generosity of time and your help, you, you acknowledge the thank you, you say, I really appreciate your feedback. Um, and, uh, do you mind if I send you a quick text? Can you take a minute to write a review? And then you just coded to grow my reviews? You have your own dashboard. You just type in their cell phone and automatically it'll send them a link to your Google Review page and your Facebook page and you know, whatever the other review page that you have. And at that moment when they're so grateful to you, they write the review right then and there mm-hmm <affirmative>. And not only is it a review, but it's an awesome review because they're so grateful to you.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's important because you know why before they decide to pay the money, they will Google your name, and when they see all these websites saying, you're awesome, and you're this, and you're that, then you're helpful. Who are they gonna pick? You are somebody who doesn't have that social proof.

Yeah, absolutely. And I can't believe how many people are not listed on, um, don't have a Google Business page, or don't have a young page, or things like that. It's, it's, it's really, and a lot of it comes from fear. They don't want that bad review. Well, guess what? People will create a business online for you and go put on that battery review if they want to. Actually, case in point, I had someone in my building, um, someone, he didn't even have a Google Business page or a Yelp page. Someone created that page for them and left a fake review <laugh>.

I know.

So now that's the whole reputation management coming into place. Whereas if they had that, if they've been growing all these things from the first place in the first place, it would not, it would not have happened. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It might have, but it would've been hidden with all the other real reviews. <laugh>.

Absolutely. I I have another idea for you. So you are used to doing podcasts, right? Yes. Why not start a podcast where these creative business owners come and ask you simple questions?

You know, the first one was a lot of work. So <inaudible> <laugh>,

You, you know why? Because you might be helping somebody Uhhuh, in addition to that person loving you now 300 other people love you.

That's right. Yeah.

You know what I mean? So you get leverage. Yeah. So you are kind of getting 300 people to like you, because you're so caring and so helpful. I just a thought. Yeah. But I understand. Just put it in your to-do list for later. Like, you have to prioritize, right? You can't do everything, so you have to pick and choose the most important things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. This is awesome stuff. Now I had a question. How do you make that phone ring?

Um, you know, like I said, I started with one thing. I started last year, the, my first few clients, I put out a Facebook page, um, and sent, um, imported my, my emails from LinkedIn. Um, I had a pretty big network because having worked in the, in the aerospace and engineering industry for a while, I had a little bit of, of, of, um, what do you say it, like a network, uh, and specialized network. So creating that Facebook page and inviting everyone. So every single one of my friends and family to like that. And then sending out that first email saying that I'm in business and this is what I do. I got my first clients just through that one all alone. Um, and then after that, when I started, uh, running down, running out of people that I knew, I started working on my online presence.

Um, so anything from, like I mentioned earlier, the local citations go in and making sure that you are cited in pretty much, uh, every directory that matters for your field. Um, and really just learning about, I I really love, um, marketing. I love online marketing. So reading books and watching YouTube videos and taking, uh, courses on Udemy. I, I know that I'm, at some point I'm gonna have to hire someone like yourself to help me with all these things, but I wanted to know what, where my money was going basically before, before that happens. So, and I mentioned earlier, I love learning new things, so that's part of that as well. But really just, just learning and, um, and applying, uh, everything that I learned online. So that's, that's how most of my clients find me. They find me online, they find me through, um, well rated, uh, Google Business pages, Yelp pages, um, just yeah. Other online directories. And, um, I mentioned I've been in practice for a little over a year, and now a lot of the referrals that have been working, um, hard on like nurturing those of relationships are, are actually coming to fruition. So, right.

Again,

That's all my secrets. <laugh>, all

These sharing, come back to those influence principles, right? When somebody already trusts you, your client, and they mention your name, and that person who they're mentioning the name to trust them, that trust is transferring from your client to them.

Right? Exactly. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So,

Uh, all of a sudden you have, you know, you have somebody else trusting you because their friend trusted you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now a simple idea, again, you can use this, it's $39. It's called my digital sign boards. Okay. So, um, it's pretty much, think of it like a sign, like a, a sign board. You know, that signs that people take and post on their social media mm-hmm <affirmative>. But it's on an iPad. So there's like hundreds of signs and, uh, I, I'll have the, you know, the people responsible for that kind of send you, uh, lawyer related signs. Like, you know, I love my client. She rocks, you know, whatever it is, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Take pictures with them. Right. And, uh, so you meet them, you know, at a coffee shop. It could be at people you made at conferences, your clients, and then share it on your social media, on your Facebook page, on your website.

You know why it's called similar others. So I'm a lady, I'm in my forties, and when I stand next to you and say, I like so and so now other people who in their forties who are ladies who are creative people say, I will like her too. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because somebody like me likes her. Yeah. It's called similar others. It's very powerful. 'cause we all think we are unique and different. Yeah. So when you show somebody like me liking the business, then I think I like the business. So that's a great idea. So start taking pictures, like have a page of, you know, my clients love me and have a hundred pictures, you know, black, white, I,

That's a good idea. You know, and I agree with like, people basically portray themselves and seeing themselves in that person that, that you're talking to.

Exactly. We see, like, you know, that's what politicians do. They are, one day they're kissing babies. The next day they're going hunting. Yeah. Because, you know, the hunters will like me because I, I go hunting the, the people who like babies will like me because I, I kiss babies. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's very, very powerful. Um, the other thing you can do is, um, now once you have the picture, um, and you post it on your social media, encourage your client to comment on it mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right now, when the client comments on it, automatically every one of their friends see it. Yes. Now they all know that their friend who they trust trusts you mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they're like, oh yeah, I also need to get a patent. Right. Yeah. Who are they gonna call the, the stranger that they don't nothing about or the one their friend trusts.

Exactly.

Right. And a lot of these things, like you said, uh, unfortunately marketing is not, uh, sometimes easily measurable. Like, in other words, you did one thing and you're gonna get one customer from it. No, it's, sometimes you might do one thing that might give you a hundred clients back. Sometimes it might take six months. You have to just keep at it. You have to keep working on these things. Um, so yeah, I love your attitude and I love your mindset, which is, uh, you know, it's really not about how much money you have, it's really about your, your, your commitment and your focus. Um, so you are doing it all yourself, and that's awesome.

Yeah. It's been a lot of fun. <laugh> one thing that I have to say that I wasn't implementing before is really having like a tracker, uh, for potential clients. And I started that in the last few months. And, um, but like you said, you know, just to see what works and what doesn't and how to tweak things a little, um, to, to make that work.

Yeah. So tell me about the trackers. What do you mean by that?

It's like really simple. It's, um, I know some people use like A-C-R-M-A client relation management software, but I just like to see where people are, like, how they found out about me if they Googled my name, or if they, they, they Googled, like I wanna know exactly what they typed in there, you know, so I can actually work on those things. Um, but it's, it, it helps having that sheet in front of me every time I'm talking to somebody new to, to be reminded to, to ask them exactly. Like, and sometimes it's just listening, um, to what they say. So, so I can direct my marketing a little towards, towards what they're looking for rather than just what I want them to find me.

Right. And two, two tips on that. Right. One is, um, these people build a database. So once you have a hundred people or 200 people who you have interacted with in the past, make sure you're staying in touch with them. There's two ways to do it. One is through social media, if they like your Facebook page. Um, there's another tool called Done for Me Social. And, and the way that works is it creates, there is educational or informational graphics with your logo on it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, Hey, did you know blah, blah, blah, 79% of the people who did not have a patent, uh, you know, regretted not having a parent. I don't know. I mean, this has to be true. You can't make it up, right? Yeah. So there has to be some true survey or true information that could be something educational or, uh, did you know that, um, I mean, uh, or a quote from you.

You know, if you're not making money, it's not a smart time. Smart, you know, it's not the best time to invest in protecting your idea. First, focus on making money. You know what I mean? So a quote from you, so when you share these things on social media, it's not about me, me, me, come buy my services. You don't even talk about the fact that you are a patent lawyer unless they go to your website and find that out. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now they like you because you are about helping them. And you know what? If they keep seeing these posts on your Facebook page two times a week, you're not gonna be out of sight, out of mind. And the minute they need something, who are they gonna call? The person who keeps, you know, thinking of them and helping them with ideas and suggestions and stuff. So, um, I don't know, try it. And I think you might like that kind of a, because you, you, you are a systems person, so once you get into habits, you just keep doing these things again and again and again.

Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I will definitely use that.

Yeah. I mean, I'm so, uh, proud of what you, I mean, I'm an engineer, so I love engineers, so, uh, but I, I'm really glad you are for, you know, following your passion and, uh, you know, doing something you love and, and you're charting your own paths. This is awesome stuff. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think we need lawyers like this because a lot of lawyers, you know, unfortunately, uh, they complain about why the world sucks. They don't do anything, you know?

Exactly. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Here you are just out there taking risks, trying things, learning things, you know, growing, you know, evolving and helping others along the way. I mean, you're now sitting here and talking to me, helping hopefully somebody else who can learn from your experience and knowledge.

Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Uh, any final thoughts if they wanna follow you or, you know, like if I'm a lawyer and I want to talk to you or whatever, how can they get ahold of you? Would you be open to Yeah,

Absolutely. Um, well, you can email me directly at Karima. That's K-A-R-I-M a@kgulick.com. K-G-U-L-I-C k.com. I'm also on, uh, social media. You can find me at the Patent lady, um, on Twitter or the patent lawyer on Instagram. Um, and yeah, I'm also on LinkedIn. Feel free to add me. Happy to chat <laugh>.

That's awesome. I love your, your, your names, uh, patent lady and the patent lawyer. That's awesome. Yeah,

<laugh>, I couldn't find the patent lawyer on Twitter, so I have to set,

I, I like patent lady more than I like patent lawyer. Okay, perfect.

<laugh>,

Because it's unique. It stands out, people won't forget it, you know what I mean? So, yeah. Uh, so that's cool. Thanks a lot for your time. Uh, I really appreciate your time. Uh, and I also want to thank our listeners, uh, for, you know, you know, we have thousands of people who listen to us. You know, they, they follow us on social media or go to our website or listen to us on iTunes. Um, so if you like this podcast, please share with your friends on social media. Uh, please write a review for us. Come to our website, dominate law, any marketing questions, reach out to us. Uh, any questions for Karima? You know, we will include all of her information, so please reach out to her. She's pretty interesting and inspiring, so I think just watching what she does, you might learn a few things about how to grow your business.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and thanks for having me and all the great tips. I actually took a few notes, <laugh>,

Thank you. And I'm gonna, uh, talk to you about, you know, following up with this other lady you were talking about. So, sounds

Great. Sure. Absolutely.

Thank you. Thanks everyone. Have a wonderful day.

Thank you for listening to Dominate Law podcast series, brought to you by Dominate Law Marketing. For more information, please visit our website@www.dominatelaw.com. If you like our podcast, rate us or leave us a review on Facebook, please subscribe via Stitcher or iTunes, and also find us on Instagram and Twitter.